New ICE Vehicles Banned in California by 2035

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by Dirty Harry

The renewables won’t be a problem as Tasmania is powered 100% by renewables, large hydro electric system there. Likely one of the main reasons they chose the site. Nearly all our fuel is imported at the moment so any fuel made locally, especially eFuel will be a bonus.

https://theconversation.com/tasmania...p-there-160927

When you say it won’t be a problem, do you mean they have such an abundant amount of energy reserves that they don’t need to build more energy systems to accommodate 80 more factors that have high energy demands, or are you saying they are committed to doing it in a green way, so they will be willing to build renewable energy sources to meet the needs?

In the US, we have fluctuated as a net exporter and importer for several years. We were a net exporter, while still importing lots of oil of course. We were still a net exporter at times this year, despite gas prices surging. Locally produced products are good, but there is no guarantee it won’t end up somewhere else, especially if someone somewhere is willing to pay more for it.

https://www.reuters.com/legal/litiga...mp-2022-04-29/

I think renewable oil from carbon capture along with ethanol will be used primarily for industries that can’t come off of fossil fuels entirely like aviation and long distance freight. Battery tech could improve enough to meet the needs of those industries one day. Once we have enough extra renewable energy to waste it on the production of hydrogen and carbon captured oil instead of more efficiently using the energy for BEVs then we could see more hydrogen and eFuels, but if Tasmania and the rest of the world is going to take this seriously then prioritizing eFuels for F1 and Porsches is probably not the right path.

[ZDan]

I fully agree with moving from fossil fuels to renewables for transportation sector.

But IMO a HUGE thing we could do, which would make most people's live MUCH betterin the US, is to greatly incentivize employers to allow work-from-home, move to a 4- or even 3-day work week, and also work to ensure that people can afford to LIVE near where they WORK. Millions of people commuting long distances to work 5 days a week is a major source of CO2 emissions, particularly given that most of them are in gas-guzzling trucks and SUVs that should NOT be getting a break on CAFE fuel economy requirements...

[TurboLag23]

Originally Posted by ZDan

I fully agree with moving from fossil fuels to renewables for transportation sector.

But IMO a HUGE thing we could do, which would make most people's live MUCH betterin the US, is to greatly incentivize employers to allow work-from-home, move to a 4- or even 3-day work week, and also work to ensure that people can afford to LIVE near where they WORK. Millions of people commuting long distances to work 5 days a week is a major source of CO2 emissions, particularly given that most of them are in gas-guzzling trucks and SUVs that should NOT be getting a break on CAFE fuel economy requirements...

Agreed with this wholeheartedly - lifestyle changes such as WFH and proximity have cut my driving down by over 50% compared to before pandemic, and I'm happy for that. Now we need to build on that momentum by implementing excellent, European-esque public transportation and road/street infrastructure in major metro areas to encourage transportation by train/bike!

Another interesting anecdote is that as new EVs have gotten simultaneously more capable and affordable, more and more people have been ditching ICE entirely. People are realizing (rightfully so) that gas-powered cars are not a value-add to their lifestyles in any way. Range anxiety is less of an issue since most EVs can go over 200 miles in a single charge - even if you're scum-baggin it on on-ramps and off-ramps. Variety has also exploded - nearly every large automaker now offers at least one EV (although EV sedans and wagons would be VERY welcome (lookin at you, Volvo/Polestar!)). And infrastructure improvements are increasing the convenience of and reducing the price of charging. Out here in CA, people are waiting in line for months to get solar - and they reap the benefits of never needing to pay for fuel (in addition to slicing their electricity bill nearly to zero).

An added benefit of that transition in the new-car market is going to be a mirror transition in the used-car market, which should be starting about now actually (given when the Tesla Model 3 debuted).

I think there will always remain a nominal demand for gasoline for ICE-powered cars. However, as the technology and infrastructure around EVs burgeons at such a quick rate, I can't help but think that by 2035 no normal person is going to think twice about buying an EV, even if the option for an ICE car exits. And by 2050, after the last normal ICE cars have aged out of operation, the majority of gas demand/ICE car usage will be from enthusiasts like us, who will likely drive our ICE cars fewer than 5,000 miles per year since we'll all have EV dailies anyways. So while I agree with the ban on ICE cars after 2035, I think by that point it may actually be redundant.

Last point, to alleviate any doom/gloom: I'm also waiting patiently for one of these more enthusiast-minded automakers to realize there is nothing stopping them from throwing an electric motor in front of a manual transmission in an existing chassis (86, Miata, Z, etc.). The power:powertrain weight ratio that can be achieved by an electric motor is objectively better than any ICE motor. Additionally, advancements in battery technology are rapidly improving weight, price, environmental impact, charging time, and range (Toyota/Panasonic solid-state batteries, for example). All of this makes a very promising case for EV sports cars - and once companies realize they can corner the enthusiast market in a forward-looking way by just sacrificing some efficiency and adding a manual transmission, it should be a no-brainer to do just that. If they released an EV 86/BRZ with a mechanical clutch and shifter, I'd be first in line to get one.

[Dirty Harry]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

When you say it won’t be a problem, do you mean they have such an abundant amount of energy reserves that they don’t need to build more energy systems to accommodate 80 more factors that have high energy demands, or are you saying they are committed to doing it in a green way, so they will be willing to build renewable energy sources to meet the needs?

I meant the power plants in Tasmania now. The state is 100% green and looking at generating 200% of its energy needs and exporting electricity to the mainland. So plugging in an eFuel refinery to the grid down there, it would be using green energy for the plant etc.

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by TurboLag23

....Variety has also exploded - nearly every large automaker now offers at least one EV (although EV sedans and wagons would be VERY welcome (lookin at you, Volvo/Polestar!)). And infrastructure improvements are increasing the convenience of and reducing the price of charging.

While not "exactly" a wagon, the Lyriq is closer to a modern station wagon than it is an SUV in my opinion.

With Tesla signing an agreement to open it's charging stations in the US I think the improvements we need in the infrastructure are coming. Still surprised that that fueling stations along the main routes haven't jumped on the bandwagon more

Originally Posted by TurboLag23

All of this makes a very promising case for EV sports cars - and once companies realize they can corner the enthusiast market in a forward-looking way by just sacrificing some efficiency and adding a manual transmission, it should be a no-brainer to do just that. If they released an EV 86/BRZ with a mechanical clutch and shifter, I'd be first in line to get one.

I don't really see the point of adding a mechanical clutch and shifter. For the most part it only helps in the top end, maybe increasing your top speed a bit. Just adding it for the sake of "engagement" doesn't really advance the tech at all.

[WolfpackS2k]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

They could all do it. It just means more refueling or 30% larger tanks and lines.

More refueling? I take it you don't watch F1? They banned refueling during races 15 (20?) years ago. Personally it's something I consider incredibly lame, but they run the whole race on one (250 lb) tank of fuel.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by Dadhawk

I don’t really see the point of adding a mechanical clutch and shifter. For the most part it only helps in the top end, maybe increasing your top speed a bit. Just adding it for the sake of "engagement" doesn't really advance the tech at all.

It would be just for engagement to simulate traditional shifting. They could simulate different torque and power curves at the sake of performance. They could simulate sounds like they already do. Depending on how well this was done, it could be enjoyable, especially if they could do a V8-12, F1, big turbo, etc all in one car.

While EVs are fun and the torque curve makes the car quick, it isn’t as engaging. It doesn’t push the driver to apply more throttle and RPMs to ring the engine out. If they don’t retain ICEs for enthusiasts with eFuels then simulating a driver’s car would be the next best thing than basically feeling identical to every other EV.

Toyota patented an EV clutch transmission.

https://insideevs.com/news/566896/to...-transmission/

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

More refueling? I take it you don't watch F1? They banned refueling during races 15 (20?) years ago. Personally it's something I consider incredibly lame, but they run the whole race on one (250 lb) tank of fuel.

I haven’t had cable since sometime around the last 2000’s, and I haven’t watched a F1 race probably since the early 2000’s, and that wasn’t on my TV; it was at a sports burger/pub. I did watch all seasons of the F1 series on Netflix.

Regardless, they could bring back refueling or increase the capacity of the system.

[NoHaveMSG]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

I haven’t had cable since sometime around the last 2000’s, and I haven’t watched a F1 race probably since the early 2000’s, and that wasn’t on my TV; it was at a sports burger/pub. I did watch all seasons of the F1 series on Netflix.

Regardless, they could bring back refueling or increase the capacity of the system.

Like I said, I don't believe that is their goal. From what I understand they are aiming to produce a net zero fuel with similar energy density capable of running in standard ICE engines that produces similar levels of performance.

[Sasquachulator]

I can imagine a EV manual setup being just like those old arcade racer setups or computer gamer setups for Gran Turismo or Forza with the gaming chair and pedal/shifter.

Meaning all the shifting happens but its gonna feel super fake.
Might not be a bad thing, especially if they can "tune" the shifter/pedal feel like a real manual (like EPS replicates hydraulic steering) but it'll take awhile before someone can make the entire action feel natural.

Kind of like how CVT's have fake "shift points" to replicate an automatic

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

It would be just for engagement to simulate traditional shifting....

I guess, but this just feels to me like sitting in the still car and making engine and shifting noises as you pretend to drive.

I doubt this will happen, and if it does, it will likely be more or less a placebo. Even the Toyota patent you reference seems to just be "faking" gear changes.

I understand some people are MT or die, and I get that and if that's what is wanted, and there is enough market for it I hope it happens for those that want it.

I would think though that ones that want it, would want it to actually do something and not simulate something.

[ZDan]

For my electrified SV650 motorcycle build, I kept the transmission, but motor placement precluded use of the clutch. Clutchless up- and downshifts are no prob with the sequential gearbox tho Fun...

[NoHaveMSG]

Originally Posted by ZDan

For my electrified SV650 motorcycle build, I kept the transmission, but motor placement precluded use of the clutch. Clutchless up- and downshifts are no prob with the sequential gearbox tho Fun...

OooooOOOoo

Pics ?

[bcj]

Originally Posted by ZDan

For my electrified SV650 motorcycle build, I kept the transmission, but motor placement precluded use of the clutch. Clutchless up- and downshifts are no prob with the sequential gearbox tho Fun...

Originally Posted by NoHaveMSG

OooooOOOoo

Pics ?

Yeah, detail mount machining docs and parts list & etc.