New ICE Vehicles Banned in California by 2035

[Sasquachulator]

Originally Posted by Dadhawk

I think pretty much every manufacturer has this now. GM's new battery tech is basically the entire rolling chassis of the car.

I agree with @Ohio Enthusiast it's a good idea in theory but probably not practical in the long run.

Since I have a preorder for a Lyriq AWD I've been playing around with routes (most of the 3rd party route planning software has the Lyriq in it now. A trip we plan to take next week that is a little over 500 miles, would require us to leave at 90%, stop once for a recharge of 30 minutes and still arrive with what I consider a safe margin of charge. That's practical to me.

Yeah every car manufacturer with an EV chassis is basically using the same skateboard chassis setup...the flat battery pack takes up the entire floor, the motors are over the axles and depending on how big/tall they are could allow a frunk. I dont know how you even design a more efficient setup than that....

[Sasquachulator]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

I still think battery swapping is the better way to go for society. It is better than fast charging that degrades the batteries faster. Battery swapping is as fast as filling up a gas tank. Battery swapping means the batteries can be even smaller with no range anxiety.

I would love to see a model where car manufacturers, car manufacturer groups or battery manufacturers like Panasonic own the batteries. Only the car is purchased and the battery is bought/rented/leased as a separate purchase or included, and it could be an option, but regardless, a person basically can buy new shells and just continually swap modular batteries. Going on a camping trip or needing to tow a boat in your EV truck, well, swap in the premium/long range battery for the day or weekend, maybe for a surcharge or the standard or economy battery. Why carry a big battery around all the time?

The manufacturer can slow-charge the batteries for better longevity. They can recycle the batteries or transition them to grid storage instead of doing a buy-back/tade-in program.

Tesla moved away from swapping because of lack of interest, but that was probably because luxury car buyers have homes and garages to charge, and because Tesla never set up a system for swapping that removed liability like Niro. Tesla now has an integrated battery that is part of the structure, which they say saved weight, so this could be good for many buyers, but I see swapping as the ideal model for the masses.

you know...all of these EV solutions for problems that are a logistical nightmare when having to scale it up to automotive size.....however impractical they are always seems to be to spend more money......

-Gas prices pissing you off? Spend a huge upfront cost for an EV and its charging. you'll save in the long run..(have to reach the break even point first before you actually see savings)
-EV not practical enough for your road trips and you dont have a second car? Spend money and rent a car!
-EV road trip takes longer than normal? Spend money for a hotel if you have to stay overnight to make it work!
-Battery charging annoys you? just swap out the batteries!!! you cant practially do it yourself so you likely have to spend money at a swap station to swap it out!

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by Ohio Enthusiast

There are many technological problems with that, and let's not start on the psychological ones (swapping a fresh battery for an old one, swapped battery that stops working, etc). A great idea in theory, but probably not realistic for passenger cars. It might work for fleets and/or heavy duty vehicles, though.

You’re late to the game. There are already thousands of battery swapping stations worldwide. This isn’t just an idea that only has a proof of concept. It is active and rapidly expanding

So far, NIO has provided over 5.3 million swaps to users in China. Automatic battery and electric system checks are performed during each swap to keep both the vehicle and battery in shape. In December, NIO installed its 700th battery-swap station in China, hitting its annual target ahead of schedule.

https://www.electronicdesign.com/mar...-pace-in-china

Skip to 4:30

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by Sasquachulator

you know...all of these EV solutions for problems that are a logistical nightmare when having to scale it up to automotive size.....however impractical they are always seems to be to spend more money......

-Gas prices pissing you off? Spend a huge upfront cost for an EV and its charging. you'll save in the long run..(have to reach the break even point first before you actually see savings)
-EV not practical enough for your road trips and you dont have a second car? Spend money and rent a car!
-EV road trip takes longer than normal? Spend money for a hotel if you have to stay overnight to make it work!
-Battery charging annoys you? just swap out the batteries!!! you cant practially do it yourself so you likely have to spend money at a swap station to swap it out!

It is what it is. We are what, ten years into EV cars at any type of scale to say we were being serious about EV tech and solutions? Give it time. They should be cheaper than an ICE equivalent eventually from the POS, and those grievances won’t really be issues.

Supercharging and public charging is free for some and costs almost as much as filling up with gas for others, which is why most charge at home because it is cheaper. I think battery swapping will be fairly cheap for people who don’t have the means to recharge at home or who need a swap for a long trip or day of towing their boat to the lake. It would be no different than heading to the gas station, but probably faster than filling up a large tank on a truck. Battery swapping makes a lot of sense for semis.

https://www.greencarreports.com/news...-free-in-china

Nio has been charging about $25 for each battery swap, according to Automotive News, or about $130 for a monthly subscription, although the company included 12 free battery swaps a year for early reservation-holders and those who bought the Founders Edition version of its upscale ES8 electric SUV.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Ohio Enthusiast

There are many technological problems with that, and let's not start on the psychological ones (swapping a fresh battery for an old one, swapped battery that stops working, etc). A great idea in theory, but probably not realistic for passenger cars. It might work for fleets and/or heavy duty vehicles, though.

It is almost the ideal set up for transports. Pull into a quick change station and be back on the road in less time than filling two 150 gallon diesel tanks.

Passenger car owner are not going to want to sacrifice the space needed for swappable.

Besides I would hate digging through my junk drawer for a good replacement battery all the time.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

It is what it is. We are what, ten years into EV cars at any type of scale to say we were being serious about EV tech and solutions? Give it time. They should be cheaper than an ICE equivalent eventually from the POS, and those grievances won’t really be issues.

Electric cars were the leaders in the very beginning. Gas was hard to get and very expensive. The tech was taking off but then gas got cheap (and the oil companies suppressed the battery tech as they got richer) cars started reaching more areas that still didn't even HAVE electricity and... well e know the rest of the story.

Now things are going back to that beginning. Imagine where we would be with battery tech by now if it had progressed alongside ICE for the last 150 years or so!

https://www.energy.gov/articles/history-electric-car

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by Sasquachulator

Yeah every car manufacturer with an EV chassis is basically using the same skateboard chassis setup...the flat battery pack takes up the entire floor, the motors are over the axles and depending on how big/tall they are could allow a frunk. I dont know how you even design a more efficient setup than that....

Almost everyone. Not Lotus. While the skateboard design is ideal for most setups and would make battery swapping ideal, Lotus put the batteries more over the rear wheels for its sports cars so the ride height and seat position are lower. They might still slide out. Another EV track hypercar I watched has batteries that require removal to recharge and slide right out. They were upright, but I think the reason was for packaging and for more weight down low and over the rear wheels.

https://www.greencarcongress.com/202...923-lotus.html

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

It is almost the ideal set up for transports. Pull into a quick change station and be back on the road in less time than filling two 150 gallon diesel tanks.

Passenger car owner are not going to want to sacrifice the space needed for swappable.

Besides I would hate digging through my junk drawer for a good replacement battery all the time.

Sacrificing what space?

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Electric cars were the leaders in the very beginning. Gas was hard to get and very expensive. The tech was taking off but then gas got cheap (and the oil companies suppressed the battery tech as they got richer) cars started reaching more areas that still didn't even HAVE electricity and... well e know the rest of the story.

Now things are going back to that beginning. Imagine where we would be with battery tech by now if it had progressed alongside ICE for the last 150 years or so!

https://www.energy.gov/articles/history-electric-car

Yes, Jay Leno always laments all his vehicles for their maintenance, while praising his Baker electric. Where we could have been with an extra 100 years of EV tech or even thirty years after the GM EV1…

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

Sacrificing what space?

As mentioned a built in battery can be spread out. A removable has to be one or two easily accessible units with all the connectors, tracks, restraints and other odds and ends required to make secure but still easy to swap. That will take up space. Sure it can be incorporated into the design but it is still "lost" space all the same.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

As mentioned a built in battery can be spread out. A removable has to be one or two easily accessible units with all the connectors, tracks, restraints and other odds and ends required to make secure but still easy to swap. That will take up space. Sure it can be incorporated into the design but it is still "lost" space all the same.

For sports cars or passenger cars that extra one inch lower seat height might matter, but probably not. Most people won’t notice in the taller seated positions of CUVs dominating vehicles on the road. I think Tesla mostly did the integrated pack to reduce parts, increase sales or profits by lowering MSRP or manufacturing costs, or to slightly improve efficiency by minor weight reduction, but I don’t know how much lighter the integrated setup is. I doubt it would be a deal breaker or anything, but not being able to battery swap in a future where other cars have that option could be a real deal breaker.

[soundman98]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

You’re late to the game. There are already thousands of battery swapping stations worldwide. This isn’t just an idea that only has a proof of concept. It is active and rapidly expanding



https://www.electronicdesign.com/mar...-pace-in-china

Skip to 4:30

Searching "battery swap stations" in Google maps points me to an exhaust shop 6 miles away.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by soundman98

Searching "battery swap stations" in Google maps points me to an exhaust shop 6 miles away.

We don’t have them because we don’t have the Nio, which was designed for swapping. Teslas weren’t really designed for swapping in a practical way, as far as I can tell.

China sold 3x more EVs in one month than we did in three months, and it made up 31% of the share of new vehicles. In the US, only 4.6% of new vehicles being EVs.

US: All-Electric Car Sales Increased 60% To Almost 160,000 In Q1 2022
China: Plug-In Car Sales Climbed To Over 400,000 In May 2022

https://insideevs.com/news/585186/us...-sales-2022q1/
https://insideevs.com/news/594260/ch...ales-may-2022/

Again, I will predict that battery swapping will be a big thing. The other real benefit is battery stations can control their charging times, charging in the middle of the day and at night during off peak hours to flatten the duck curve that much better, while allowing people to swap after work during peak hours, as an option of home charging. The other thing worth mentioning is the stations don’t need to equal or replace the current number of fueling stations. Most people will charge at home or at work. We would only need enough stations for those wanting to swap, as opposed to fast charging or home charging, so in totality, only a fraction of fuel stations would be replaced by swapping stations.

China is moving fairly aggressively with renewables and have goals for carbon neutrality by 2060 and peak carbon usage by 2030. Musk has consistently touted their recent advances compared to the US, which is also why he has predicted more sales and growth in China for Tesla.

https://www.reuters.com/business/aut...es-2022-02-24/

https://insideevs.com/news/594260/ch...ales-may-2022/

https://energypost.eu/china-should-c...its-emissions/

I guess one advantage of falling behind other countries is we will be able to see what works and what doesn’t and move best from there.

[86league]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

Most people will charge at home or at work. We would only need enough stations for those wanting to swap, as opposed to fast charging or home charging, so in totality, only a fraction of fuel stations would be replaced by swapping stations.

I can see this having advantages and disadvantages. Makes for fewer number of charge points needed for normal times, but that could make holiday travel a mess (well more of a mess than it is now even).

With the huge gas stations we have now along freeways near major cities there can be big lines during thanksgiving travel. If the "fill-up" time for EV's is longer than gasoline cars - there will be a need for a larger number of charge/swap stations to handle that holiday traffic - or make the wait time longer. But, there will be no business case to build them for single digit uses during the year. I'm guessing they will size the # of charge/swap stations to something sustainable for regular day-to-day traffic.