Will there ever be a cheap tuning solution for the GR86 after Cobb's announcement?

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

I'm following what you are saying, and I could imagine a scenario where no manufactures or retailers are able to sell headers, for instance, without risking a steep fine, but I'm just wondering if this would also mean CARB EOs will end. If someone buys a CARB JRSC kit and flashes the CARB tune with ECUTEK then they could still flash to a different tune and flash back to the CARB tune for smog like people do for other mods too. That same person could also sell the ECUTEK dongle and cable if they have no plans to flash the ECU again, so what is stopping someone from using that ECUTEK to flash their car with a non-CARB tune and flashing back to stock during smog? What if someone sells their CARB JRSC kit, and the new owner needs to buy a license from ECUTEK to be able to flash a CARB tune? It seems like there are paths for getting the equipment and license if they plan on allowing CARB parts and tunes. Maybe they plan to end the EO program.

Is this only for vehicle specific parts and not for generic parts? Like will aftermarket fuel pumps be illegal? People have said that "race" or "off-road" labels on parts will not fly, so does this mean professional motorsports will end, or will they buy parts to a third party warehouse that will verify authenticity before shipping or something elaborate? Will it be like Honda selling K20c1 crate motors only to Honda Raceline members? Will GM stop selling crate engines? I feel like vagaries in the law never end well for those trying to uphold the vague laws in court.

Like many laws they have not really worked through the ramifications yet so things like non oem parts are still grey. They have said they are "considering" the impact on motorsports but have not come to a final verdict on how to deal with that.
The reality at this point in time is that they are going to start to crack down on the sellers of non standard equipment. Of course even though it is a Federal law each State will decide how far they want to take it.
Will be the normal clusterfuck for a while.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Blighty

Like I said, its not the same.

In Australia the 'Product' is explicitly defined.

https://www.awe.gov.au/sites/default...-standards.pdf

You cannot ban tuning products for instance, while you might still be in breach of a number of laws for modifying your car without the relevant paperwork, there is no legal device that can disallow sale of anything but the engines themselves.

And even then, it can only disallow the sale of new engines - existing or second hand sales of these products are not covered by the law.

It is the opening salvo. You really think they are going to control "powered brooms" while letting you buy whatever you want for your car?
I am not going to deep dive into Australian law but would be willing to bet there have been strong emissions control laws for tunes and exhausts for some time there. The fact that they are currently largely ignored doesn't mean it will stay that way.

[Lantanafrs2]

Britain doesn't have any new gen 86 or brz yet. My bet is Shiv has something first. Ecutek will have something eventually. I'd love to see some tuning results from the new motor myself.

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

.. People have said that "race" or "off-road" labels on parts will not fly, so does this mean professional motorsports will end, or will they buy parts to a third party warehouse that will verify authenticity before shipping or something elaborate? ....

I can't make the leap between companies not being able to sell "off-road" or "race" parts, and professional motorsports ending. As long as there are vehicles there will be motorsports of some sort. You don't have to have a bunch of "high performance parts" that spew carbon into the air to hold a race.

Maybe, just maybe, we'll end up with actual stock car racing again!

Besides, doesn't most of this go away as we convert to alternate fuels anyway?

[OkieSnuffBox]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

I'm following what you are saying, and I could imagine a scenario where no manufactures or retailers are able to sell headers, for instance, without risking a steep fine, but I'm just wondering if this would also mean CARB EOs will end. If someone buys a CARB JRSC kit and flashes the CARB tune with ECUTEK then they could still flash to a different tune and flash back to the CARB tune for smog like people do for other mods too. That same person could also sell the ECUTEK dongle and cable if they have no plans to flash the ECU again, so what is stopping someone from using that ECUTEK to flash their car with a non-CARB tune and flashing back to stock during smog? What if someone sells their CARB JRSC kit, and the new owner needs to buy a license from ECUTEK to be able to flash a CARB tune? It seems like there are paths for getting the equipment and license if they plan on allowing CARB parts and tunes. Maybe they plan to end the EO program.

Is this only for vehicle specific parts and not for generic parts? Like will aftermarket fuel pumps be illegal? People have said that "race" or "off-road" labels on parts will not fly, so does this mean professional motorsports will end, or will they buy parts to a third party warehouse that will verify authenticity before shipping or something elaborate? Will it be like Honda selling K20c1 crate motors only to Honda Raceline members? Will GM stop selling crate engines? I feel like vagaries in the law never end well for those trying to uphold the vague laws in court.

As Tcoat said, they are going after the people selling the stuff, not the users. So if you can't buy the tuning equipment, you won't be able to sell it to someone else to use.

Originally Posted by Dadhawk

I can't make the leap between companies not being able to sell "off-road" or "race" parts, and professional motorsports ending. As long as there are vehicles there will be motorsports of some sort. You don't have to have a bunch of "high performance parts" that spew carbon into the air to hold a race.

Maybe, just maybe, we'll end up with actual stock car racing again!

Besides, doesn't most of this go away as we convert to alternate fuels anyway?

Remember when it was big to tout vehicles with Flex Fuel capability 15 years ago in this country? You don't see that anymore.

The big governments aren't concerned with algae-based fuel, ethanol made from sugar beets (like Brazil), they are all in on going electric.

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by OkieSnuffBox

Remember when it was big to tout vehicles with Flex Fuel capability 15 years ago in this country? You don't see that anymore.

Remember? I own two (2004 Suburban and 2016 Ford Focus).

Originally Posted by OkieSnuffBox

The big governments aren't concerned with algae-based fuel, ethanol made from sugar beets (like Brazil), they are all in on going electric.

I include EV in alternative fuels.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Like many laws they have not really worked through the ramifications yet so things like non oem parts are still grey. They have said they are "considering" the impact on motorsports but have not come to a final verdict on how to deal with that.
The reality at this point in time is that they are going to start to crack down on the sellers of non standard equipment. Of course even though it is a Federal law each State will decide how far they want to take it.
Will be the normal clusterfuck for a while.

Well take marijuana as an example. Federally it is illegal, but many states have legalized it, so state police won’t be doing any raids, but federal officers could potentially come kicking down doors at any time. Some presidents have directed the FBI to focus on marijuana crackdowns, and others have said they aren’t going to be enforcing the federal law, but aren’t going to legalize marijuana. My hospital doesn’t allow anyone to have in their possession marijuana because we receive federal money, so even though it is legal in the state, it can’t be in the building, knowingly.

Similarly, the motorsports industry would be gambling by producing federally illegal parts, even if the states lack laws or say it is legal. Some might accept the risk. Others might not.

Cracking down on sellers or manufacturers or both? If I buy a header from Alibaba that is shipped from China by a Chinese seller of a Taiwanese manufactured part, how can they fine them, or will they fine USPS for delivering it?

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

Well take marijuana as an example. Federally it is illegal, but many states have legalized it, so state police won’t be doing any raids, but federal officers could potentially come kicking down doors at any time. Some presidents have directed the FBI to focus on marijuana crackdowns, and others have said they aren’t going to be enforcing the federal law, but aren’t going to legalize marijuana. My hospital doesn’t allow anyone to have in their possession marijuana because we receive federal money, so even though it is legal in the state, it can’t be in the building, knowingly.

Similarly, the motorsports industry would be gambling by producing federally illegal parts, even if the states lack laws or say it is legal. Some might accept the risk. Others might not.

Cracking down on sellers or manufacturers or both? If I buy a header from Alibaba that is shipped from China by a Chinese seller of a Taiwanese manufactured part, how can they fine them, or will they fine USPS for delivering it?

Both.
They will just start seizing such items at customs. Some will slip through of course. It will be a slow process but eventually the Chinese sellers would take enough of a loss they would just stop shipping.

It will be even a bigger deal in Europe. They are already looking at ALL emissions from a car not just the engine. We have been tasked to determine the annual emissions from brake dust and develop a "corrective" action! They are looking at how to determine the amount of emissions created from belt wear for crying out loud.

As I have said this is all really early in the world wide big plan so it will take years before they get their shit together enough to have a real impact but everybody better get used to announcements such as Cobb's. It is just the beginning of an era where it is really going to suck to be a young automotive "enthusiast".

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by Dadhawk

I can't make the leap between companies not being able to sell "off-road" or "race" parts, and professional motorsports ending. As long as there are vehicles there will be motorsports of some sort. You don't have to have a bunch of "high performance parts" that spew carbon into the air to hold a race.

Maybe, just maybe, we'll end up with actual stock car racing again!

Besides, doesn't most of this go away as we convert to alternate fuels anyway?

Would you go to drag races of completely stock cars? No Formula 1. No Nascar. No Top Fuel racing. Motec shuts their business down. Garrett only sells OEM replacement turbos. Aftermarket fuel rails, fuel pumps, FPR, surge tanks, flex fuel kits, fuel tanks, maybe fuel lines, turbos, superchargers, headers, etc just doesn’t exist. I get that there are hicks racing stock tractors with retrofitted toilet bowls for seats, so racing will never cease, but for all intensive purposes, it will.

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

Would you go to drag races of completely stock cars? No Formula 1. No Nascar. No Top Fuel racing. Motec shuts their business down. Garrett only sells OEM replacement turbos. Aftermarket fuel rails, fuel pumps, FPR, surge tanks, flex fuel kits, fuel tanks, maybe fuel lines, turbos, superchargers, headers, etc just doesn’t exist. I get that there are hicks racing stock tractors with retrofitted toilet bowls for seats, so racing will never cease, but for all intensive purposes, it will

Yes, I would go see completely stock cars drag race. In fact, I would prefer it to watching some special built 4 wheeled vehicle that costs $10,000 a quarter mile to run.

As far as all the other types of racing, they will adapt, just has they have been doing since the first organized race in 1867. Let's face it, once the racers figure out how to get the range and "refuel" capacity they need out of EVs, there won't be much liquid fuel racing left.

As far as all the parts you mention, I do believe you should be able to maintain and improve the performance of your vehicle. However, there is always a social compromise to any of that.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

Would you go to drag races of completely stock cars? No Formula 1. No Nascar. No Top Fuel racing. Motec shuts their business down. Garrett only sells OEM replacement turbos. Aftermarket fuel rails, fuel pumps, FPR, surge tanks, flex fuel kits, fuel tanks, maybe fuel lines, turbos, superchargers, headers, etc just doesn’t exist. I get that there are hicks racing stock tractors with retrofitted toilet bowls for seats, so racing will never cease, but for all intensive purposes, it will.

Motorsports (both pro and amateur) may change a bit but they will survive. You just won't be able to drive your track car on the roads to get there. You will need to haul it with your ultra green vehicle that leaves the air it passes through cleaner than it was when you got there.

There are groups fighting to maintain motorsports and since they are such a big tradition all around the world they do have some clout.

https://www.sema.org/epa-news

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Dadhawk

Yes, I would go see completely stock cars drag race. In fact, I would prefer it to watching some special built 4 wheeled vehicle that costs $10,000 a quarter mile to run.

As far as all the other types of racing, they will adapt, just has they have been doing since the first organized race in 1867. Let's face it, once the racers figure out how to get the range and "refuel" capacity they need out of EVs, there won't be much liquid fuel racing left.

As far as all the parts you mention, I do believe you should be able to maintain and improve the performance of your vehicle. However, there is always a social compromise to any of that.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Both.
They will just start seizing such items at customs. Some will slip through of course. It will be a slow process but eventually the Chinese sellers would take enough of a loss they would just stop shipping.

It will be even a bigger deal in Europe. They are already looking at ALL emissions from a car not just the engine. We have been tasked to determine the annual emissions from brake dust and develop a "corrective" action! They are looking at how to determine the amount of emissions created from belt wear for crying out loud.

As I have said this is all really early in the world wide big plan so it will take years before they get their shit together enough to have a real impact but everybody better get used to announcements such as Cobb's. It is just the beginning of an era where it is really going to suck to be a young automotive "enthusiast".

Well, then I guess we are likely to see most serious motorsports end. Either that or teams will need to get creative with what they are working with and will need to produce everything in house and retrofit OEM products.

Enthusiasts will need to stick to stock cars that already make lots of power and focus on aero, or just get into the stance game or show-n-shine. I mean there is little stopping a person from welding a test pipe after removing the cat only to swap stock headers back on the car for a smog test, especially if the state won’t enforce the law rigorously like they currently don’t. In five to ten more years there should be enough cheap Hellcats for young enthusiasts to afford to do donuts behind my house.

[spcmafia]

Worth mentioning that F1 has been making strides to steer away from racing fuels and what not. Look at their engines, we have gone from V12s, to the abomination V6s are. I believe their fuels are supposed to change in about 4-6 years, then who knows what else they'll do. Probably go full electric.



Just like racing started the minute a second car was built, racing will continue, we already have Formula E. All we can do is adapt as people before us continued to do so.