Is this oil cooler kit too much for a NA?

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by Ashikabi

I was using 5w30. I dont recall what the oil temp was as this was several years ago, but it was the hottest day of the year. I swapped an LS instead of rebuilding. Our track session was set up in 20 minute intervals. So if you wanted to maximize track time, you need to be able to run 20 minutes straight.

Same for my club, 20 minute sessions. But like I said, only getting 5-6 laps in I didn't consider myself "screwed"...

Anyway my guess is that earlier cars had oiling issues and more frequent failures. I wouldn't ascribe your failure to the oil being "too hot". Again, if adequate oil supply isn't making it to one or more of the bearings, things are gonna go bad at some point, whether your oil temps were 225F or 275F.

Suggesting 200 degrees or ambient as a possible oil temp is simply being petty as there is no oil cooler you could run that would achieve a temperature close to that.

I'm not trying to be cute or petty. I asked what temperature is acceptable, "as cool as possible!" is not a good answer and shouldn't be driving anyone's approach to selecting an oil cooler...

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by Ultramaroon

My goal was to build an endurance setup. #achieved

Now I just have to consider transmission and diff.

But I'm probably wasting my time and money because you don't need an oil cooler.

I've said it before, if I were running endurance events I'd likely be running an oil cooler, if for no other reason than to allow greater margin to account for other issues while maximizing ability to stay on track and do laps. For sure it would be a consideration. For my usage of 4x ~15-minute stints per track day, ~10-12 track days per year, oil changes every 4-6 track days, I'm good... OP said his usage is less than that.

[Ultramaroon]

Originally Posted by ZDan

I'm not trying to be cute or petty. I asked what temperature is acceptable, "as cool as possible!" is not a good answer and shouldn't be driving anyone's approach to selecting an oil cooler...

Test temperature as specified in the service manual is optimal. Acceptable range?

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by Ultramaroon

Test temperature as specified in the service manual is optimal. Acceptable range?

Test temperature as referenced in the manual isn't *optimal*, it is just a *control* temperature so you can compare like vs. like.

IMO, there isn't any "optimal" temperature. Temperature should drive oil selection for sure. For my usage, if oil temp maxed out at 240, *maybe* 250F, I'd run the highest HTHS 20-weight I could find. At the max temps I'm seeing of 275F/135C, I run Redline 5w30 (3.7 cP HTHS @150C). If my temps regularly got up to 185F, even though I think there's still *some* margin there, I'd probably run an oil cooler. If I were endurance racing, I'd probably run an oil cooler.

Some would say 300F is OK. C7 Corvettes don't go into "limp" mode until 320F indicated!

Usage is part of it, so is ability to monitor. I do keep my eye on the gauge while on track. Never seen it go more than a tick over 270F indicated, but if I did see it continue to rise significantly from there I'd bring it in.

[Ultramaroon]

Originally Posted by ZDan

Test temperature as referenced in the manual isn't *optimal*, it is just a *control* temperature so you can compare like vs. like.

Until I see a reference that defines that temperature as "not optimal, I will err on the side of caution and experience. Under no circumstance is 270F better than 150F for long-term life of elastomers. High thermal gradients aren't necessarily bad but they certainly aren't better. Engine is thermostatically controlled to run at 190F. I get the higher efficiency of 0w20 and UOA says I have decent life left in my oil with fewer changes. Blah, blah, blah...

Usage is part of it, so is ability to monitor. I do keep my eye on the gauge while on track. Never seen it go more than a tick over 270F indicated, but if I did see it continue to rise significantly from there I'd bring it in.

If it gets to 270 in a few laps, and sticks, then it sounds like you've reached equilibrium. I'm not saying your way is bad. I do wonder from where comes all that passion for hot oil.

[ZDan]

Reference temp is reference temp, not "optimal", just "normal operational".

Originally Posted by Ultramaroon

Under no circumstance is 270F better than 150F for long-term life of elastomers.

I dunno about that... You really want the oil to regularly get warm enough to drive moisture out, not necessarily to boiling temp but 150F isn't going to do it.
I haven't done UOA myself but there are plenty who report no problems after running multiple track days at 270F+ without a cooler, no oil degradation and no worrying amounts wear metals. If anything, what I've seen suggests that much longer intervals between changes could be justified, but I'm sticking with 5k miles or 6 track days whichever comes first.

275F isn't any kind of problem at all for good synthetic oil. Hell, Mobil1 says their oil is good to 500F!

If it gets to 270 in a few laps, and sticks, then it sounds like you've reached equilibrium. I'm not saying your way is bad. I do wonder from where comes all that passion for hot oil.

From the first time I tracked it (just a few months after I bought the car), every single track session, the oil goes up to just over 270F indicated, and stays there. It's almost like there's a 2nd thermostatically controlled set point.

I don't have a "passion" for hot oil. I just want to be sure people understand that it is *not* necessary to install an oil cooler to "casually" track these cars (i.e. normal track-day usage, a few 15-20 minute sessions per day). From my point of view, a lot of people in these forums have a fetishistic obsession over keeping oil "as cool as possible", when it's perfectly normal for many cars to run oil temps this high at the track, and higher even.

I think what happened is, some engines on earlier 2013-2014 cars had oil delivery issues for whatever reason, and there were failures in cars run hard at the track. People assumed it was due to "high oil temps", but then failures continued to happen even for cars running oil coolers. So people came to the mistaken conclusion "it's still not cool enough!" So we get the idea that people should run as BIG an oil cooler as possible, and make oil temperatures "as cool as possible". When in reality, if adequate oil isn't being fed to the bearings, things are going to go bad at some point whether running 0w20 at 250F with a cooler or 5w30 at 275F without a cooler...

My main points:
*Good synthetic is not going to have any issues running *well* over 300F, with reasonable change intervals. So it's not *the oil*.

*From the data we have, oil pressure with 5w30 at 275F with no oil cooler, is the *same* as oil pressure with 5w30 at 250F *with* an oil cooler (i.e. running an oil cooler doesn't mean you will have greater oil pressure at the galleys despite the oil being cooler). So it's not *the oil pressure*

*Having an oil cooler installed adds failure points. It is not uncommon to hear of leaky oil cooler plumbing, and at least one car lost an engine due to this! Also, potential for putting slippery fluids on a race track goes up... I.e., adding an oil cooler doesn't necessarily *reduce* risk as much as people seem to think, but does add some risk...

IMO, telling everyone "you have to run an oil cooler to track the car" might be exposing them to more risks and for most track usage I don't think it's warranted.

Again, if I were running endurance events (where cars can see the amount of track hours that my car sees over the course of an entire year with at least a couple of changes), I'd likely run a cooler, would certainly consider it.

For most track usage, it's not necessary.

[PulsarBeeerz]

Water can vaporizes at room temperature. Steam is water vapor out of a <140F water heater.. I know the 150F was pulled out of nowhere but yeah it would be hot enough to get the moisture out..

Even in the winter one will see oil temps over 160F AFTER the oil cooler. A 15-20F delta puts internal temps around 180F. Mind you a large portion of the oil isn't going through the heat exchanger.

Oil is used to lubricate and heat sink. Taking heat away from the bearings, the bits that we should be worrying about here. Seeing the forest through the trees. The bearings themselves can easily be over 300F with oil temps of 275F...

There may be no right or wrong answer. BUT, there is a glaringly reasonable one given the data and knowledge gained in the last 8 years this chassis has been around.

[Ultramaroon]

Originally Posted by ZDan

I dunno about that...

I do, but I'm not going to engage in a protracted argument. I suggest that anyone interested in the subject look into heat aging of elastomers. Bottom line, while the newest fluoroelastomers can withstand super high temps, they are not immune to the effects of thermal aging. I'd like to hold off on having to replace my valve guide seals for as long as possible. Keeping the whole engine cool goes a LONG way toward preserving them.

https://mscrm-dupont.secure.force.co...ntroProperties

The rate at which properties of an elastomer change increases logarithmically with the temperature. Relative small changes in temperature may, therefore, cause large differences in the degree of deterioration.

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by PulsarBeeerz

Water can vaporizes at room temperature. Steam is water vapor out of a <140F water heater.. I know the 150F was pulled out of nowhere but yeah it would be hot enough to get the moisture out..

Eventually... 190F will drive it out a lot faster.

Oil is used to lubricate and heat sink. Taking heat away from the bearings, the bits that we should be worrying about here. Seeing the forest through the trees. The bearings themselves can easily be over 300F with oil temps of 275F...

As long as there's a reliable supply of oil that's the proper viscosity range and HTHS for the oil temp, bearings should be OK up to quite high temperatures as they are cushioned by the oil film. Of course once there begins to be bearing/crank contact, bearing life is gonna be pretty short from there...

There may be no right or wrong answer. BUT, there is a glaringly reasonable one given the data and knowledge gained in the last 8 years this chassis has been around.

Awful lot of parroting in the echo chamber tho...

I studied this when I started tracking the car, and again I assumed I'd be getting an oil cooler for it. The more I looked into it, though, the more it seems to me that there were oil delivery issues in early engines. The fact that failures happened to engines with oil coolers as well as without oil coolers somewhat bears this out.

My oil temp goes to just over 270F indicated, and never ever rises further from there. Other manufacturers have specifically called out temps up to 279F as "normal". Corvette doesn't go into "limp" until 320F.

I think I'm alright but may consider getting UOAs done going forward, seems like a good idea anyway...

[NoHaveMSG]

Originally Posted by ZDan

The more I looked into it, though, the more it seems to me that there were oil delivery issues in early engines. The fact that failures happened to engines with oil coolers as well as without oil coolers somewhat bears this out.

The only thing that I am aware that has changed in the engine lubrication during the life of the model is the change of the size of the oiling holes in the rocker pivots. That happened in 2014. 13's had different sized holes in the pivots in each heads, 14'+ have the same size in both heads. I believe the passenger side pivots had smaller lubrication holes IIRC.

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by NoHaveMSG

The only thing that I am aware that has changed in the engine lubrication during the life of the model is the change of the size of the oiling holes in the rocker pivots. That happened in 2014. 13's had different sized holes in the pivots in each heads, 14'+ have the same size in both heads. I believe the passenger side pivots had smaller lubrication holes IIRC.

It could be something a machining error that was discovered and fixed, like an oil passage that wasn't being fully drilled. All I know is since I've been "studying" this since ~2018 when I started tracking the car, whenever I see posts reporting bearing failure, I look over at the sig and it's almost *always* a 2013...

[Ashikabi]

Originally Posted by ZDan

It could be something a machining error that was discovered and fixed, like an oil passage that wasn't being fully drilled. All I know is since I've been "studying" this since ~2018 when I started tracking the car, whenever I see posts reporting bearing failure, I look over at the sig and it's almost *always* a 2013...

The 2013s certainly had oiling issues. But guys were losing engines left and right without tracking their cars. So writing of all engine failures as "poor oiling because it's probably 2013" is silly. It has obvious problems and should therefore be excluded from any sample. There have certainly been failures in later models.

As for the Corvette limp mode as 320 degrees, maybe their bearings are made of different material. Might have something to do with engine architecture also. For example, Corvettes don't have variable cams to my knowledge.

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[NoHaveMSG]

Originally Posted by ZDan

It could be something a machining error that was discovered and fixed, like an oil passage that wasn't being fully drilled. All I know is since I've been "studying" this since ~2018 when I started tracking the car, whenever I see posts reporting bearing failure, I look over at the sig and it's almost *always* a 2013...

I have always just attributed it to them being older and on the road longer. I haven't seen rod bearing issues isolated to the 13's. They do seem more common but I think there is a higher probability of an assembly procedure issue in the early cars then a machining error. The timing cover was superseded twice, so there could be something there. I was rather surprised that the rod bearings have never changed and are the same as the WRX, mains have been superseded once.

[Ashikabi]

Originally Posted by NoHaveMSG

I have always just attributed it to them being older and on the road longer. I haven't seen rod bearing issues isolated to the 13's. They do seem more common but I think there is a higher probability of an assembly procedure issue in the early cars then a machining error. The timing cover was superseded twice, so there could be something there. I was rather surprised that the rod bearings have never changed and are the same as the WRX, mains have been superseded once.

The 2013s had problems with silicone globs coming loose and blocking oil passages. They were dropping left and right for a long time. Lost 2 motors myself. But Toyota rebuilt one so might have just happened to me twice

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