Is this oil cooler kit too much for a NA?

[J95]

I grabbed this kit from a 2nd hand at a good price, but I am considering if I should actually install it in my non turbo BRZ (I just changed the Setrab unit to a 13 row one, not 16)

https://www.fensport.co.uk/products/...r-kit-gt86-brz

My concern is if the "long" pipes could induce an important pressure drop? Someone told me that in this cases it is common to upgrade the oil pump for turbo applications.

Btw I will do track my BRZ, in the past I got to see 130 °C. I will definitely get an oil cooler, I just debate if I should get one placed at front with less pipe length.

What are your thoughts? Thanks!

[Thefalls]

Its a major ongoing debate whether you really need an oil cooler on a N/A car. On track it seems that its needed from feedback and on the street not really.

It depends on what kind of temps you are seeing currently and since you mentioned that you will be seeing some track action then its is recommended.

I went by the several threads on here and ultimately went for a cooler and couldn't be happier. I am not comfortable with oil temps running in the range of 120/130 deg cels and I opted for an oil cooler. During ambient temps of 27-30 deg cels I would be seeing oil temps in the range of 110-120 deg cels on the streets. And when doing some pulls it would easily reach in the region of 130 deg cels.
Yes I chickened out at those temps and during some autocross (our course are very tight) days I would easily reach 130 deg cels in no time. Modern oils are rated to higher temps but I wasnt comfortable, hence my choice to opt for an oil cooler.

I would suggest you to do some reading first.

[J95]

Originally Posted by Thefalls

Its a major ongoing debate whether you really need an oil cooler on a N/A car. On track it seems that its needed from feedback and on the street not really.

It depends on what kind of temps you are seeing currently and since you mentioned that you will be seeing some track action then its is recommended.

I went by the several threads on here and ultimately went for a cooler and couldn't be happier. I am not comfortable with oil temps running in the range of 120/130 deg cels and I opted for an oil cooler. During ambient temps of 27-30 deg cels I would be seeing oil temps in the range of 110-120 deg cels on the streets. And when doing some pulls it would easily reach in the region of 130 deg cels.
Yes I chickened out at those temps and during some autocross (our course are very tight) days I would easily reach 130 deg cels in no time. Modern oils are rated to higher temps but I wasnt comfortable, hence my choice to opt for an oil cooler.

I would suggest you to do some reading first.

Thx for your comments!
I will get a cooler for sure. My only concern now is, if I picked the right one (maybe this one induces too much pressure drop), or should I get another one like Mishimoto

[Ashikabi]

Originally Posted by J95

Thx for your comments!
I will get a cooler for sure. My only concern now is, if I picked the right one (maybe this one induces too much pressure drop), or should I get another one like Mishimoto

What makes you think this one has more pressure drop than the mishi? I don't think hose length will dramatically affect pressure, it's core size that does that

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[MrSkubi]

https://www.ft86club.com/forums/show...45&postcount=1

Some good data there

[NoHaveMSG]

Originally Posted by J95

Someone told me that in this cases it is common to upgrade the oil pump for turbo applications.

Nobody has made that work as far as I am aware. I believe a couple of the cam position sensors on the timing cover are in a different position and of a different type, and you can't just put the turbo oil pump in the NA timing cover.

[Ashikabi]

Originally Posted by NoHaveMSG

Nobody has made that work as far as I am aware. I believe a couple of the cam position sensors on the timing cover are in a different position and of a different type, and you can't just put the turbo oil pump in the NA timing cover.

Using a bigger oil pump to overcome pressure loss in a cooler is a pretty big bandaid anyways

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[ZDan]

Originally Posted by J95

Btw I will do track my BRZ, in the past I got to see 130 °C. I will definitely get an oil cooler, I just debate if I should get one placed at front with less pipe length.

What are your thoughts? Thanks!

What kind of track usage? I've been tracking mine since new, average 4x ~15-20-minute stints per day, ~10-12 track days per season. Have never seen the need to run an oil cooler. Oil temps get up to maximum 130-135C every session, I've never seen it go higher than that. That's fine for full synthetic 5w30 with HTHS >=3.5 cP @ 150C. IMO...

[J95]

Originally Posted by MrSkubi

https://www.ft86club.com/forums/show...45&postcount=1

Some good data there

Really good data, thx!
This basically tells us that, for 5w30, more than around 250°F (121°C) is dropping the pressure under 10 psi/1k rpm. This somehow matches the maximum recommended oil temp that people use to say, which is around 115-120°C

Originally Posted by Ashikabi

What makes you think this one has more pressure drop than the mishi? I don't think hose length will dramatically affect pressure, it's core size that does that

Sent from my ONEPLUS A5010 using Tapatalk

Well you could be right, maybe the extra length is not that much. Pressure drop is linear dependent with the Length, but there are many other factors involved so maybe I am over concerning about the length . Core size you mean the radiator right? Well I have 13 rows, not too bad

Originally Posted by ZDan

What kind of track usage? I've been tracking mine since new, average 4x ~15-20-minute stints per day, ~10-12 track days per season. Have never seen the need to run an oil cooler. Oil temps get up to maximum 130-135C every session, I've never seen it go higher than that. That's fine for full synthetic 5w30 with HTHS >=3.5 cP @ 150C. IMO...

Uf, my tack usage is similar to yours or less. My temps get easily raised to 130-135°C (even If I am rushing a bit out of the track). In my opinion, after reading a lot, this is too high temperature. Look at the pressure drop in the link above due to the thinner oil...

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by J95

Uf, my tack usage is similar to yours or less. My temps get easily raised to 130-135°C (even If I am rushing a bit out of the track). In my opinion, after reading a lot, this is too high temperature. Look at the pressure drop in the link above due to the thinner oil...

135C/275F is no big deal for a decent synthetic oil. Pressure needs to be sufficient to feed the bearings, with good 5w30 it is at those temperatures.

But anyway, the data in the link shows that oil pressure is *the same* for 5w30 oil at 275F *without* an oil cooler (yellow), as it is at 250F *with* the oil cooler (green). 7psi/1000rpm in both cases. I.e., pressure drop due to the cooler is same as pressure drop due to hotter oil without the cooler.

There's nothing magical about 10psi/1000rpm. It is used as a general guideline to tell you if you might have issues with clearances opening up but it's based on more normal street-usage oil temperatures. Of course it's going to be lower than that at elevated oil temps, but that's not any indicator of "trouble".

275F is not that big a deal, run HD 5w30 with HTHS >=3.5 (some say 2.9) @150C and you'll be fine.

[CrowsFeast]

Originally Posted by J95

Uf, my tack usage is similar to yours or less. My temps get easily raised to 130-135°C (even If I am rushing a bit out of the track). In my opinion, after reading a lot, this is too high temperature. Look at the pressure drop in the link above due to the thinner oil...

If you read through a couple of oil cooler threads you'll see ZDan argues pretty heavily against the need for an oil cooler. I won't say he's wrong, nor will I say if he is right, but I am saying there's not much point in arguing with him because you're not going to change his mind

Decide for yourself if you want/need one, sounds like you've decided to get one. I wouldn't worry too much about the slight extra length in hose. compared to the pressure drop in the core, the drop in the hoses will be negligible.

[PulsarBeeerz]

Taken from the comments of Moto iQ FRS build. Just a couple engineers talking. Some people only think about the oil temps and ignore what the oil is trying to protect..


Mike Kojima says: May 1, 2021 at 10:09 pm
Bearings start to lose load-bearing capacity at 260f oil temp, they melt at around 600 degrees so they start to lose strength by the time the measurable oil temp is around 260. The oil is carrying heat away from the bearings.

Dan DeRosia says:
May 3, 2021 at 5:15 pm
From doing lab R&D for a company that solely did bearings, I’d go a bit more conservative than that; 260F is sort of where I’ve seen stuff drop off a cliff. Bearing overlay is already at about half its room temperature strength at 210F. That’s ignoring what you’re doing to your oil viscosity, though this is talking in terms of temperature at the bearing.

[NoHaveMSG]

Originally Posted by Ashikabi

Using a bigger oil pump to overcome pressure loss in a cooler is a pretty big bandaid anyways

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Especially when the oil pickup is too small already.

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by CrowsFeast

If you read through a couple of oil cooler threads you'll see ZDan argues pretty heavily against the need for an oil cooler. I won't say he's wrong, nor will I say if he is right, but I am saying there's not much point in arguing with him because you're not going to change his mind

What would change my mind: A rational argument!

When I bought this car I just assumed I'd *have* to get an oil cooler like everyone said. My first track event I watched oil temp climb as expected, and planned to come in once it got significantly above the 270F mark. 4 years and 40+ track days later it has never gone above just over 270F indicated, max 275F from datalogs. If anyone can make a reasonable argument that that's "too hot" for good 5w30 synthetic, I'm all ears... Before anyone says "but the oil pressure!", please look at *and interpret* the chart posted above regarding oil pressure with and without an oil cooler.