Why did I wait so long to try the pedal dance

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by NoHaveMSG

I haven't had it drop into ice mode. I have had the EBD miss behave trail braking hard into a corner using the long press. @ZDan has pulled the abs fuse on track. I don't believe he had any issues.

Yeah, I pulled the fuse at Watkins Glen last year due to ABS going psycho. It worked fine for me there at "normal" ambient temps. Was also fine most of next event at Palmer with much cooler ambient temps, but I did flatspot a front Hoosier on cold tires and (mismatched f/r) brake pads which cost me big-time in the TT as I had to run street tires That was with CSG Spec2 front and Winmax W5 rear pads. This year I'm on CSG Spec2 front/rear which are better-balanced throughout cold-hot temps.

I do think running without ABS is costing me a bit of time as I can't SLAM on the brakes as late, have to *squeeeze* on them a little earlier. Probably no more than a tenth or two but I *need* that (2nd last event by less than a tenth). At some point I'll go ABS again but as it is I can't trust my unit at 10/10ths at the track.

IMO the (17+ anyway) stock ABS performs GREAT at the track with the long-hold on the TCS button. I believe earlier models require pedal dance vs. long-hold. Not sure if earlier models would benefit at the track from pulling the 40A ABS fuse but I'd bet most would be reliably faster with pedal dance and with ABS.

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by jflogerzi

Maybe I will try this in a few events at the same track. Nothing bad can really happen there. Link on how to do this?

You just pull the bigger 40A abs fuse. But IMO there is no good reason to do this vs. pedal-dance unless you specifically want to develop threshold braking skillz without ABS and don't care about occasional lockups and generally doing slightly slower lap times.

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by soundman98

I believe the abs fuse is needed for biasing, otherwise the system will lock a wheel with a random amount of pedal pressure.

@NoHaveMSG had it happen I believe with some other warning lights


If it was only the t/c and abs systems it took out, I'm all for pulling the fuse

I think you might be referring to my experience. *WITH* abs fuse in, with the long-hold on the TC button (which has worked GREAT for me with my '17+ over the years), I had issues my 1st session of the event at Watkins Glen last year. I got what felt like biasing/over-working of the outside (left) front going into turn 1 (right-hander) for a couple of laps then noticed ABS and TC lights on going down the straight after the esses. I backed off a little bit going into turn 6 (fast-entry downhill left-hander) but the front left *instantly* locked HARD when I got on the brakes. Tried to modulate but ABS kept locking the left front. I could not get rid of speed and front-left lockups pulled me off to track right before I even got to turn-in. Hit guardrail with [edit] right front bumper/fender (doh). Car was still driveable and I took it out taking it really really SUPER-easy, and the problem repeated itself. OK for a lap or so, then lights came on and at the next braking zone I'd get hard asymmetrical front lockups, it was CRAZY. It did it with the pedal dance as well. Friend with software found "yaw sensor error" codes. I could tell the ABS wasn't just "ABSing" but was actively applying massive pressure to the front left after the warning lights came on. I reasoned that pulling the big fuse that powered the pump should fix it and it did. But no more ABS of course...

I never get the warning lights on the street with the fuse in, haven't tried for enough laps to know for sure at other tracks but too scared to do so. I probably will ultimately just replace the whole ABS brains with new, but $1500 or so... For now I leave the fuse in on the street and pull it at the track.

[jflogerzi]

Thanks for the input. Will just stick with the pedal dance for now

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[Ultramaroon]

Originally Posted by Dadhawk

Well, to play devil's advocate, nothing is scary about driving a car before ABS/Traction Control, primarily because they were designed without it. I'd be a little cautious in a modern car because it's very likely there was a tendency of the designers to lean on the computer more than they should. Maybe not in a sports car, but definitely in other genres.

Ah, yes, but here's the rub. They should all be designed fail safe. I can't imagine a design passing scrutiny otherwise. That being said, yeah. There are some epic blunders. Looking at you, Boeing. Shame, shame...

I would agree with your advocacy statement if we changed it to "unlikely but real possibility that the designers got it wrong."

[steverife]

Legitimate LOL @ "Think Autocross.... but still a challenge".

[jflogerzi]

Originally Posted by steverife

Legitimate LOL @ "Think Autocross.... but still a challenge".

Hey gotta get my fix somewhere during the summer. Shit is way to hot now

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[CSG Mike]

I'm just glad you finally came to the dark side!

[Breezio]

Originally Posted by soundman98

Long press is what I consider good enough for extreme street driving. But now after learning of ice mode, I wouldn't trust the entire system enough to leave it active in a track setting. Too many variables at the wrong time to have to deal with

Alright peeps. Please clear this up for me.

I thought I read that ICE mode was an occasional problem WITH using pedal dance, and NOT an issue when using the long press.

Which is it? I've always long pressed and never had ice mode. I've shied away from pedal dance for fear of ice mode, plus long press has never intervened in at any time when the run wasn't gone to shit anyway.

[steverife]

Originally Posted by Breezio

Alright peeps. Please clear this up for me.

I thought I read that ICE mode was an occasional problem WITH using pedal dance, and NOT an issue when using the long press.

Which is it? I've always long pressed and never had ice mode. I've shied away from pedal dance for fear of ice mode, plus long press has never intervened in at any time when the run wasn't gone to shit anyway.

That was my understanding, as well.

With that said, I see no reason to not use the long press. Any interference that I've gotten wasn't particularly unwelcome. Like if my wrists are crossed and I have the inside rear wheel hiked up in the air, I probably don't need more throttle in that given split second.

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by Breezio

I thought I read that ICE mode was an occasional problem WITH using pedal dance, and NOT an issue when using the long press.

Originally Posted by steverife

That was my understanding, as well.

I have no experience with this, but do have some experience with programming.

If the code kicks in during the least intrusive mode (pedal dance) it would seem to me it would kick in in pretty much any mode. I suppose the long press could leave a case that becomes active in before ice mode, that is absent from the pedal dance, but that seems unlikely.

Just a thought.

[Ultramaroon]

Ice mode is baked into the ABS firmware. The only way to disable it is by pulling the ABS fuse. With any normal driver-selectable VSC mode, the ECU listens to the ABS module. With pedal dance, ABS still works but only as an independent (old-school) system. The rest of the car doesn't listen to it. No throttle pull or EBD because no yaw gyro signal.

[strat61caster]

Ice mode is more prevalent during pedal dance because you're switching the ABS to single channel mode, it's dumber and reacts in a 'safe mode' when it thinks you're on ice. Ice mode does exist in all the other ABS modes, but the ABS is acting more intelligently so the threshold for ice is much more accurate. I've never felt ice mode in a standard mode, but I have activated it multiple times during pedal dance.

I found I could brake around the potential ice mode with a more progressive braking application but found no extra speed vs the regular 5s tc off button press. The lack of electronic brake biasing does allow for more weight transfer and turn in rotation but my car is generally set up to not need that and the auto-lsd feature doesn't slow me down, I can feel it, but that's only when I'm doing dumb things. Note this is autox experience, would probably re-evaluate if I get back into track because everything is a sweeper.

[steverife]

Originally Posted by Dadhawk

I have no experience with this, but do have some experience with programming.

If the code kicks in during the least intrusive mode (pedal dance) it would seem to me it would kick in in pretty much any mode. I suppose the long press could leave a case that becomes active in before ice mode, that is absent from the pedal dance, but that seems unlikely.

Just a thought.

I mean, I CAN get ICE mode with the long press. But it generally isn't something that happens unless I screw up.

My understanding with the pedal dance is that ICE mode happens with a much greater frequency, at least in an autocross setting.