Your ideas for future sports car market

[MemphisR]

So who won that debate?!? lol. Back to the threads real topic.

[madfast]

Turbos and superchargers are on their way out. What you need is an electric motor, in other words a hybrid.



And out of all the hybrid systems out there, toyota i feel has the best one. the germans typically use single motor systems. therefore your only source of electricity is the battery. toyota however uses a 2 motor system. so in addition to the battery, MG1 can be used as a generator to directly feed MG2, which is the traction motor. Right now toyota only uses their hybrid tech for fuel economy, but it doesnt take a giant leap to see the potential performance benefits. given a clean sheet design, and not having to fret over mpg numbers, they can fully realize the potential of their hybrid system. for the engine, imagine them using a SC or TT version of the 5.0L V8. for the traction motor (MG2), they can use a more powerful motor. and for weight balance, they can move the hybrid bits amidships. also, the GS450h and LS600h only use a 2 speed reduction gearset. i can see them expanding on this for even more tq multiplication...

[EvoFanatic]

i want that GT86 hatch back right now!

[RaceR]

Originally Posted by serialk11r

I see.

The transmission actually has a much greater role in engine efficiency than the engine itself, so it's not really a valid question to ask whether a supercharger or turbocharger would be more efficient, it depends on how you want to run the engines.

One consideration though is having reserve power available, which a supercharger delivers faster. A turbo will be super laggy in top gear.

I do think you are exaggerating the turbolag in a stock modern (award winning) engine tough. In 30mph im crusing in 6. gear in my Cooper S (1.6l turbo) and I can easily accelerate uphill. 240NM from 1600-5000rpm is nice in a lightweight car.
There is not much turbolag at all, even if rpm is around or below 2000 rpm. No one would consider it super laggy! There is not much lag at all on really low revs. Obove 3000rpm power is basically instant.

It is pretty amazing how much power a modern 1.6l turbo can squeeze out and still be super efficient in terms of fuel comsumption.
1.6l Cooper S (139g co2) vs 2l NA Toybaru (181g co2)


Driving my friends CLK 230 kompressor (2,3l S/C light tuned to 230hp) I would still have to downshift like in my Mini when doing a quick overtake on single lane roads.

I wont be surprised if we see even more turbocharged engines in the future. Seems to be the future even if we like it or not. (trying to get back on topic)

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http://www.ukipme.com/engineoftheyear/index.php 2012 review of the BMW/PSA engine.
The appeal of the BMW/PSA 1.6-litre turbo has been further enhanced with the adoption of fully variable valve management. The throttle-free load control technology based on the Valvetronic system used in other BMW engines and highly unusual in this compact segment – optimises the engine's responses and, at the same time, makes for a significant reduction in fuel consumption and emissions.

Within fractions of a second, the valve management adjusts the stroke and opening period of the intake valves to the amount of output required, with the camshaft acting on the valves through an additional intermediate arm, and not directly through the cam follower. The pivot point of this additional intermediate arm is infinitely adjustable by an eccentric shaft controlled by an electric motor.

The result is a package that simply bats away new turbocharged and downsized competition from Mercedes-Benz, Ford and Alfa Romeo, as well as surpassing established rivals from Audi in the form of the 1.8-litre TFSI unit and Toyota's current gasoline-hybrid setup.

Originally Posted by MemphisR

So who won that debate?!? lol. Back to the threads real topic.

whoops.. sorry.. No one won.. We all shaked hands, drank beer and stuff.

Lets get back to dreaming of the future of sports cars..

[RaceR]

Originally Posted by madfast

Turbos and superchargers are on their way out. What you need is an electric motor, in other words a hybrid.



And out of all the hybrid systems out there, toyota i feel has the best one. the germans typically use single motor systems. therefore your only source of electricity is the battery. toyota however uses a 2 motor system. so in addition to the battery, MG1 can be used as a generator to directly feed MG2, which is the traction motor. Right now toyota only uses their hybrid tech for fuel economy, but it doesnt take a giant leap to see the potential performance benefits. given a clean sheet design, and not having to fret over mpg numbers, they can fully realize the potential of their hybrid system. for the engine, imagine them using a SC or TT version of the 5.0L V8. for the traction motor (MG2), they can use a more powerful motor. and for weight balance, they can move the hybrid bits amidships. also, the GS450h and LS600h only use a 2 speed reduction gearset. i can see them expanding on this for even more tq multiplication...

The problem i see with near future hybrid sport cars are weight when using 2 types of engines.
Using only electricity, distance is the main problem.

I would welcome them on the market tough. Im just finding them hard to fantasize about. Where is the sound? Where is the rumble. Where is the smell of burnt fuel?

Love the design of Porsche 918!

THIS I LIKE!





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EDIT:
Will probably look more like this:



http://www.autoblog.com/2012/07/18/p...artini-livery/


its V8 engine delivers more than 368 kW (500 hp), assisted by two electric motors wîth a total of at least 160 kW (218 hp). The 918 Spyder is available for immediate order priced from 645,000 Euro - subject to VAT and country-specific charges.

The 918 Spyder's combined total fuel consumption in the NEDC (ECE-R 101) is anticipated to be 3.0 l/100 km (94 mpg imp.), equating to CO2 emissions of 70 g/km (112 g/mile). Despite that, the super sports car offers performance of the highest order. It accelerates from a standing start to 100 km/h (62 mph) in a maximum of 3.2 seconds and has a top speed of more than 320 km/h (199 mph). That means the Spyder will be able to manage a lap of the Nürburgring Nordschleife in less than seven minutes and 30 seconds - trumping the Porsche Carrera GT, which needs seven minutes and 32 seconds. The top speed on purely electric power is 150 km/h (94 mph).

[serialk11r]

Originally Posted by RaceR

I do think you are exaggerating the turbolag in a stock modern (award winning) engine tough. In 30mph im crusing in 6. gear in my Cooper S (1.6l turbo) and I can easily accelerate uphill. 240NM from 1600-5000rpm is nice in a lightweight car.
There is not much turbolag at all, even if rpm is around or below 2000 rpm. No one would consider it super laggy! There is not much lag at all on really low revs. Obove 3000rpm power is basically instant.

I'm not making a statement about how much lag there is, I am just simply pointing out that there is always more lag than an NA or supercharged engine, and it does matter to some people. BMW's turbo engines are certainly excellent, for the reasons I explained previously. Because of their adoption of Valvetronic across their entire line of engines with the exception of the M3/M5, a turbo is that much more effective.

Most engines however (ones that use a throttle restriction) experience slightly higher pumping losses than they would with a bypassed supercharger. A turbo's fuel economy benefit is fully realized with a fully variable duration valvetrain.

Anyways, I hope for the sake of people like you who live in countries that heavily tax cars, that manufacturers try harder to cheat higher fuel economy numbers with gearing and such.

[RaceR]

Reinventing the past?

Could car manufacturers reinvent the past with modern technology?
Technically, could they make a chassis that would look basically like their old predecessor. Say 95% the same at least. Maybe a little larger and rounder for safety and crumple zones. Put all modern brakes, suspension and drivetrain on it etc..

They could just call them "retro cars", "Mk II editions" etc..
I would not care if they only got 2 stars on Euro NCAP. Make them like they used to be, targeting the same weight and same HP as they used to be. Do not put on more luxuries or sound isolation.. Add ABS and hydralic power steering. Simple, try to make them as close to the original as possible.

I would love to see at least these two cars reinvented.
BMW E30 M3
Porsche 911 (classic)

Are modern day regulations stopping them from making these cars?

[madfast]

Originally Posted by RaceR

The problem i see with near future hybrid sport cars are weight when using 2 types of engines.
Using only electricity, distance is the main problem.

weight in and of itself is not bad. the effect it has on the car is relative. that said, i honestly do believe that hybrids are the future. not necessarily from a mpg/co2 standpoint but all out performance. and the place that will cultivate development is le mans. starting in 2014, the new rules kick in and they are very open, limiting only fuel use per lap. hybrid systems, motors and battery tech will be pushed and all that will trickle down into production cars. the end result will be a paradigm shift in what we expect to see in a performance car.

I would welcome them on the market tough. Im just finding them hard to fantasize about. Where is the sound? Where is the rumble. Where is the smell of burnt fuel?

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo8rIqwZyis"]Porsche 918 Spyder spotted at Nürburgring - YouTube[/ame]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0bFShHZv4wk"]Toyota TS030 Hybrid pit exit - YouTube[/ame]

again, it depends on how you do it. right now there is no production hybrid that is built from the ground up as a sports car. the 918 will likely be the first. HOWEVER, the 918's hybrid system is NOT special. its the same old motor in between the engine and tranny setup that all the germans are using right now. its just that they are using a 500 hp V8 + a 100 hp motor up front + 120 hp motor in the back.

on the other hand, toyota's planetary setup, is ingenious. the ICE both powers the wheels and spins MG1 to provide electricity to MG2 or recharge the battery. this can be done at a stop or while moving. this can also be done while MG2 provides power to the wheels. the german single motor setup cannot do this. the car either has to be stopped to recharge the battery, coasting/"sailing", or the engine can be "over driven" while moving, but then obviously you cannot use the motor for power...

toyota's HSD is a great system that is waiting for someone with huge balls to use it for performance and not mpgs... just think, the LS600h has 438 hp. imagine if they supercharged the engine and put it into the IS chassis to make a IS-Fh??? you can have a legit 500hp hybrid right now if toyota had the balls to do it....

[serialk11r]

For racing yea Toyota's HSD system can be completely nuts if they are a little more serious about the gas engine itself, but HSD necessarily is a fully automated system, and there is no point whatsoever in "simulating" gears.

This is where smaller, lighter, simpler, cheaper comes in. Simpler may be disputable for what I'm thinking of. When your engine is small, you can afford to run it less efficiently at times without actually using that much energy (idling a 5.0L V8 guzzles ~3 times as much fuel as idling a 1.5L engine). When the car is light, you can reduce the brake regeneration capacity while not losing any more energy to friction brakes.

[madfast]

Originally Posted by serialk11r

For racing yea Toyota's HSD system can be completely nuts if they are a little more serious about the gas engine itself, but HSD necessarily is a fully automated system, and there is no point whatsoever in "simulating" gears.

toyota doesnt use the HSD planetary system in racing. but what they do learn from racing may make its way into the HSD system.

as for simulating gears, its a little different in the eCVT than on regular cvts. for a eCVT, its official use is to vary the amount of engine braking on long declines.

This is where smaller, lighter, simpler, cheaper comes in. Simpler may be disputable for what I'm thinking of. When your engine is small, you can afford to run it less efficiently at times without actually using that much energy (idling a 5.0L V8 guzzles ~3 times as much fuel as idling a 1.5L engine). When the car is light, you can reduce the brake regeneration capacity while not losing any more energy to friction brakes.

the beauty of HSD is that the engine doesnt idle per se. at a stop, it turns off. while cruising, lift off the throttle, it turns off. above a certain speed, the engine will spin, so MG1 doesnt spin too fast, but the engine doesnt use any fuel. it simply spins like an air pump to slow down MG1. imo the problem with current HSD hybrids is that MG2 is too weak. if they use a more powerful motor, like a pure EV would, then the car wouldnt need to rely on the ICE as much. like i said, a clean sheet designed sports hybrid would take advantage of the HSD system if they have the balls to do so.

and regen braking is the most relevant "tech" that can be learned from racing. balancing regen and friction brakes while maintaining braking feel/precision. like EPS systems they can only get better as people get more experience with tuning them.

[serialk11r]

But start-stop systems all turn the engine off at a stop too. A Prius will idle if it has to provide power for accessories. The beauty is that there is no clutch disengagement required.

I agree that regen braking is very important, but it is also more important in racing than in anything else. So the question we need to ask is, to what extent is it "worth" putting this into street cars? With open throttle, fuel cutoff deceleration, I argue that a mild hybrid system is good enough, but it should be a little more powerful than what cars have nowadays so there is a real acceleration benefit.

[madfast]

Originally Posted by serialk11r

But start-stop systems all turn the engine off at a stop too. A Prius will idle if it has to provide power for accessories. The beauty is that there is no clutch disengagement required.

all accessories are run off a common 12V battery. the 12V is recharged through a DC-DC converter from the main traction battery. the ICE basically never idles. any time the ICE is on, its either recharging the battery and/or moving the car.

I agree that regen braking is very important, but it is also more important in racing than in anything else. So the question we need to ask is, to what extent is it "worth" putting this into street cars? With open throttle, fuel cutoff deceleration, I argue that a mild hybrid system is good enough, but it should be a little more powerful than what cars have nowadays so there is a real acceleration benefit.

its worth it because its "free" energy. right now both F1 KERS and WEC hybrids are limited on how much energy they can capture. if de-restricted, we can see much more development.

mild hybrid? you'd still be relying on an inefficient ICE for primary propulsion. the industry is slowly starting to move away from this perspective. instead we need to start using the motor as primary propulsion with the ICE kicking in for extra power. toyota's HSD is the perfect platform for this.

[blur]

Personally, I like the idea of a lightweight, simple rotary powered hybrid ... aimed at enthusiasts, with lively handling. Im tired of boring hybrids....

It should use the rotary solely for charging the ultra capacitors, and have a motor in each wheel. If they can keep the weight below 2500lbs it would be spectacular.

[serialk11r]

Originally Posted by madfast

mild hybrid? you'd still be relying on an inefficient ICE for primary propulsion. the industry is slowly starting to move away from this perspective. instead we need to start using the motor as primary propulsion with the ICE kicking in for extra power. toyota's HSD is the perfect platform for this.

The Prius will idle if the traction battery is low though. I guess you could argue that doesn't happen much, but it takes a somewhat decent amount of battery capacity to never have to idle.

What do you mean relying on an inefficient ICE? HSD gets all its power from the gas engine, unless you mean we should move towards plug in hybrids.

Transferring power between MG1 and MG2 results in probably a 10% (that's my guess) loss in energy, so it's not perfect. When accelerating, your gas engine is typically at 90% peak efficiency or better. The real inefficiency of most cars comes from running at part load and the engine braking effect that happens at lower speeds where you can't use a high gear. In effect, you are dragging the engine along faster than it needs to be spinning, which wastes a tremendous amount of energy. RPM has only a very small effect on efficiency at the same load, as long as you're above ~1500rpm and below ~5000rpm, on most engines at least. That's a very good, flexible window, and we can thank all the engineers who work on engines for that.

Fortunately, most of engine braking is due to throttle restriction. Idle power consumption is 60% due to throttle restriction/related pumping, I think, and at higher rpm with no fuel injected at all that number is only going to go up. So we can drastically cut this source of loss, by implementing an open throttle under deceleration fuel cutoff state, and having an electric motor soak up some energy. Best to have a smart brake pedal that activates full regeneration before engaging friction brakes, or an engine brake button for long hills. The rest of the loss is due to the engine friction and pumping, which needs driver input (gear selection) to reduce. The key is that you have choice and control, and I like choice and control. I also think we need driver education if manual transmissions are to survive, drivers need to know that it's perfectly okay to cruise at 1200rpm and that no power is not "lugging" the engine. Either that or we accept less powerful engines.