Expert prognosis for the planet

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by Spuds

Lol. Apparently certain networks that are lax about fact checking reported a tabloid story saying 'the USG climate plan could possibly do something to make people eat less meat' as a fact, followed by the predictable outrage and grandiose statements. I don't think you will be seeing that as an option for a while.

The odd thing is that it isn’t even mentioned as a potential source or consideration, even if changing human behavior is harder than instituting legislation. At minimum, they could campaign on the idea to just cut back, but it isn’t even on the radar.

They mention reducing methane from natural gas and oil production, but enteric and manure contribute more, and I believe methane from landfills and manure can be used to create energy like at the BMW factory if there was proper capture technology. It is weird that some things are mentioned and others are not. Obviously it is easier to end fracking and build some new solar and wind farms than maybe trying to tackle harvesting methane from landfills, but I feel like some topics are just off the table for discussion. Don’t mess with people’s Whoppers!

https://www.ameresco.com/portfolio-i...ll-gas-energy/

[Spuds]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

The odd thing is that it isn’t even mentioned as a potential source or consideration, even if changing human behavior is harder than instituting legislation. At minimum, they could campaign on the idea to just cut back, but it isn’t even on the radar.

They mention reducing methane from natural gas and oil production, but enteric and manure contribute more, and I believe methane from landfills and manure can be used to create energy like at the BMW factory if there was proper capture technology. It is weird that some things are mentioned and others are not. Obviously it is easier to end fracking and build some new solar and wind farms than maybe trying to tackle harvesting methane from landfills, but I feel like some topics are just off the table for discussion. Don’t mess with people’s Whoppers!

https://www.ameresco.com/portfolio-i...ll-gas-energy/

The problem is all the effort goes into selling people things because that is where the money is. "You can buy green energy! You can buy a green car! You can buy a green house (not to be confused with a greenhouse, but that would be cool too)!"

Back when Tesla had just the Model S people used to say how they bought a car that is good for the earth or whatever. For years I had to explain that no, you bought a status symbol so you could tell everyone you cared about the environment, even though making it was very energy intensive. If they really wanted to reduce their carbon footprint they would have stopped eating meat for all the reasons you already know. They of course look at me like I am crazy...

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by Dadhawk

First, sorry about your engine, but sounds like you have a solid plan to replace it so hope that works out.

Now, not really sure why I should care what Lewis Hamilton (or any other celebrity on anything) thinks, but OK.

The last one about the "family" just gets a "give me a break" and an eye roll from me. I VERY large percentage of the animals he intends with this 1) don't live in "families" and 2) wouldn't exist if it weren't for them being part of food production and would not continue to exist if everyone went Vegan.

Then we would have to get into the whole "Angus cattle are now an endangered species" thing I suppose.

It is an appeal to authority. It didn’t work on you? Dam.

Are you saying animals can’t feel loss or grief or attachment to their young? These animals would live in families if it wasn’t for humans. Your second argument is the Matrix argument, that humans should be happy living in a delusional fictional world being food for robots because they would be dead and not bred if they weren’t cattle. Just because we brought these lives into the world doesn’t mean we have the right to abuse them. In fact, we have a responsibility to protect them and to their welfare like parents have for their children. We could apply your logic to so many things to see why it isn’t reasonable.

https://m.facebook.com/MasterClassOf...2462222178867/

[soundman98]

[Spuds]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

It is an appeal to authority. It didn’t work on you? Dam.

Are you saying animals can’t feel loss or grief or attachment to their young? These animals would live in families if it wasn’t for humans. Your second argument is the Matrix argument, that humans should be happy living in a delusional fictional world being food for robots because they would be dead and not bred if they weren’t cattle. Just because we brought these lives into the world doesn’t mean we have the right to abuse them. In fact, we have a responsibility to protect them and to their welfare like parents have for their children. We could apply your logic to so many things to see why it isn’t reasonable.

Why is Lewis Hamilton an authority on anything other than being a race car driver?

I think you know what I am going to say about the text in bold.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by Spuds

The problem is all the effort goes into selling people things because that is where the money is. "You can buy green energy! You can buy a green car! You can buy a green house (not to be confused with a greenhouse, but that would be cool too)!"

Back when Tesla had just the Model S people used to say how they bought a car that is good for the earth or whatever. For years I had to explain that no, you bought a status symbol so you could tell everyone you cared about the environment, even though making it was very energy intensive. If they really wanted to reduce their carbon footprint they would have stopped eating meat for all the reasons you already know. They of course look at me like I am crazy...

This is true. Although, many companies have bought into selling organic because they realized the extra cost was not a hindrance to acceptance, or even that greater profits could be realized. Similarly, many vegan products designed to replace meat for people looking for a meat taste comes with a premium price, so who knows? Maybe there is an untapped market that could be utilized, but in general, I agree that for vegans to win, many people have to lose, and that will be the bigger fight.

Elon Musk has had some interesting responses as to why he isn’t vegan. He also backtracks multiple times when getting deep into the green nature of the cars and flips to two arguments: oil is finite, so switching to EVs isn’t about if but when, so let’s not wait; and EVs are better, which he goes on to explain that being green is just a bonus. He is right, but he does promote that they are green, and of course they will be even more green when the industry scales up, and there is more local mining and processing. But the other truth to your statement is the fact that for the masses, large battery EVs aren’t a necessity; they are a luxury, yet at the same time, this is expected, and we will see smaller battery EVs in the future, especially if power density improves and recharging improves. Even if it doesn’t, for the vast majority of people who drive less than 30 miles a day, a small battery is more than enough.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by Spuds

Why is Lewis Hamilton an authority on anything other than being a race car driver?

I think you know what I am going to say about the text in bold.

Argumentum ad verecundiam is an appeal to authority, which is a logic fallacy. An argument isn’t true because it came from a celebrity, a president, the popular kid in school, a preacher, your parents, or a Formula 1 champion. I was making a joke above that Dadhawk wasn’t convinced by my logic fallacy...oh darn.

There was a little bit of an appeal to authority innuendoed into those captions, but a more direct appeal to authority would have captioned, “Lewis Hamilton is a world class Formula 1 champion. He is vegan. You should be vegan too.” Instead, Lewis is just spreading the good word, and his quotes stand as arguments on their own, regardless of whether he is captioned with them or not, but I figured Lewis made a befitting caption for a car forum on Earth Day. Here is another possible car/green combo:



I’ll be naive and say, I don’t know what you could mean.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by soundman98

Where was circular logic?

[soundman98]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

Where was circular logic?

first thing that popped in my head. not technically circular logic, but this thread is just going in circles.

you: STOP EATING MEAT
me/others: I WANNA, I LIKE IT

rinse, repeat, ad nauseum.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by soundman98

first thing that popped in my head. not technically circular logic, but this thread is just going in circles.

you: STOP EATING MEAT
me/others: I WANNA, I LIKE IT

rinse, repeat, ad nauseum.

Ahhh, yeah. Not circular logic, and it isn't even argumentum ad nauseam. It is beating a dead horse, but that is kind of going to be the deal in the thread about the prognosis on the planet; there will be discussions about things that effect the planet, which will include things that destroy ecosystems and animals and that add to pollution and emissions. Plus, it isn't like anyone else is adding different topics. I've added several articles on a few different subjects. People could choose to ignore the vegan stuff and focus on the other stuff. Just saying.

[Irace86.2.0]

[weederr33]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

Ahhh, yeah. Not circular logic, and it isn't even argumentum ad nauseam. It is beating a dead horse, but that is kind of going to be the deal in the thread about the prognosis on the planet; there will be discussions about things that effect the planet, which will include things that destroy ecosystems and animals and that add to pollution and emissions. Plus, it isn't like anyone else is adding different topics. I've added several articles on a few different subjects. People could choose to ignore the vegan stuff and focus on the other stuff. Just saying.

It's what I've been doing. I'll read and enjoy what you post, but meh I just can't do the vegan. Though I have cut my consumption of red meat by quite a bit; not for environmental reasons however.

[Lantanafrs2]

Who the fuck cares what you guys think, other than yourselves of course. I could launch a hot air balloon with three of you discussing world peace.

[Lantanafrs2]

The great Pacific garbage patch has nothing on this thread