TOYOTA GAZOO Racing Presents World Debut of the New JDM GR 86 (Second Gen 86)!

[AnalogMan]

I also posted this in another thread so apologies for the double booking. It looks like Nissan is going all-in on the sleaze approach to selling cars:

https://jalopnik.com/nissan-is-going...ers-1846636646

Especially with a hot car like the Z, that will probably be the most sought-after Nissan in years, I can see the salespeople reacting like sharks finding bloody chum in the water. This will be yet another BS game they’ll play, pressuring buyers into financing terms as long as a house mortgage.

As much as I like what I’m seeing with the Z, I think the probability of me buying one just stepped down a notch. Either the second-gen BRZ/86, or just keeping my current car, seems more likely.

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

Well, I know we are talking about 0-60 versus 0-62 in the above articles and below, but apparently the last gen did 0-60 mph in 6.2 seconds and 60-62 mph in 1.2 seconds for a total of 7.4 seconds.

I don't think the current car takes 1.2 seconds to get from 60mph to 62mph...
6.2 second 0-60 times we see are kinda cheating, they give themselves a 1 foot rollout.

The 7.4 seconds the press release references as 0-62 time, that must be truly from zero without a 1ft rollout, soft launch, or possibly it's an automatic? In that same 7.4-second run to 62mph they reference, I would bet they did not get to 60mph in 6.2...

Kinda odd the Ts had a lower time, right?

tS was 48 lb. heavier, and the data is in pretty coarse units, 6.2 seconds given could be 6.24, and the tS at 6.3 could be 6.25. Likewise for 94 vs. 95mph, could be 94.4 vs. 94.5. Anyway it's clear that the tS doesn't get any acceleration advantage from its PS4 tires, not enough to make up for it's modestly (+1.7%) greater weight anyway...

I have to be a bit skeptical of the Toyota press release claiming that big an improvement 0-62. But if it really *is* 1.1 seconds quicker to 60, a lot of that is likely not having to upshift to 3rd, that's ~0.5(ish) right there. And the rest due to better power/weight and no big torque dip.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by RetroRacer

Wasn’t intended for anyone in particular. Simply speaking my mind. I felt that paying for a Hakone for the same price as a PP Brz wasn’t worth it to me PERSONALLY.

Every post about the new gen I’ve seen of yours you keep commenting “how bad it “looks” and you hate it.

The front fenders you “hate” are completely functional. The side skirts you “hate” are easily changed.

You sound like an ex GF who can’t except the fact that people have moved on.
The new car has a better motor with improved HP and Torque curve, and a 50% more rigid chassis.
You KNOW that this car will be a far better performer than your car, but simply because it doesn’t “look” good to you, you bash it.

Toyota/Subaru both should be applauded that they made this car at all in 2021-22, and especially with improvements in today’s SUV, EV market.

Hakone was only made for ONE year, the fact that you say just as many of them are being tracked/raced over the multiple years these cars were offered is nonsense. These are DRIVERS cars, yes more than 50% of them don’t track them, but they are built for DRIVERS.

My Girlfriend Christine has a 2019 PP BRZ and I absolutely love driving her car, but the new car is most definitely a step up. We get it, you always talk about how the reveal was “unexciting” blah blah. Only to people like you who prefer “looks” over performance.

I’m very proud of the improvements they made on the motor and chassis. There is no doubt this will be a better DRIVERS car.

Funny how you have the word Racecar in your sig, as you never RACE your car.

Again you don’t show any appreciation that a new gen even exists, especially when it’s going to be a much better performing car.
You knock “functional” vents and “looks” while ignoring the MANY improvements.

I love the Hakone green color, always have, I was simply stating for the same price the PP BRZ was more worth the same $ TO ME.

But again, as someone who doesn’t truly “drive” their car, you wouldn’t understand.

I love both generations of the twins immensely, but unlike yourself I truly welcome and appreciate the new car, and don’t knock the “looks” over the far better performance gains , or the fact they are making a 2nd Gen at all.

The fact these cars are coming out at all should be applauded, not knocked.
You may not “race” your car, but for those of us that do, we can appreciate the chassis/ motor improvements.

Did you not claim to attempt to buy a Hakone twice and both were sold to somebody else after your credit check came back?
My objection to your comment wasn't that you think it was a better deal but your wide sweeping statement that anybody buying a Hakone only care about appearance and doesn't drive it as "intended". I ask again what is the "intended" way to drive it? I also maintain that as many Hakone owners will track or performance drive them as much as any PP one.
I put 150,000 miles on my FRS. COVID restrictions mean the Hakone will be far less but it is still driven everyday. If you actually ever buy one instead of just talking about it will you drive it that much?
It is a car, a very nice one, but still just a car and it's intended purpose is to get you from point A to point B. How you chose to drive it in between those points is up to you not the car.
I do think the next gen is ugly as hell and I will continue to say so. I also think that the 10% to 12% increase in performance (depending on who you listen to) is wonderful hype but far from the earth shattering changes some make it out to be. What I have not done nor will not due is try to convince others that my opinion is the truth such as you seem to like to do.

Oh and congratulations in finally getting through a whole post without including a mention of your " 2007 STI Crawford built, and 91 NSX. Sold my 2012 SS/RS sema Camaro"

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by Stonehorsw

TS version is slightly heavier, has aero and 18” wheels, so not a apples to apples comparison.

Yes, *slightly* heavier, 48 lb., +1.7%, which theoretically should amount to something a bit less than 1mph slower in the 1/4. The argument had been that 215/40-18 PS4s would give a big improvement in acceleration vs. 215/45-17 Primacies, and that's exactly what's compared here. If the new car gets to 62mph 1.1 seconds quicker, it is not because it's on 215/40-18 PS4s vs 215/45-17 Primacies.

If the 0-62mph is reduced by 1 second, I would expect to be from a conjunction of factors: tires (you do not know how much the grip difference would make with a higher torque), gearing, aero (drag reduction), weight distribution, suspension geometry.

I'm saying that if it really *is* 1.1 seconds quicker to 62, the main factors are better power/weight, no torque dip (doesn't affect acceleration times from higher speeds but does for standing start), and ~half of that advantage from being geared taller enough that it doesn't have to upshift to 3rd to hit 62.
Weight distribution is going to be close to the same, other factors are minor...

Anyway, we'll see!

[Lantanafrs2]

^ definitely targeting lower income buyers who will end up paying more but have lower monthly payments. I doubt many people with means will visit a Nissan showroom anyway. I think Nissan knows this as well.

[Sport-Tech]

Originally Posted by Lantanafrs2

^ definitely targeting lower income buyers who will end up paying more but have lower monthly payments. I doubt many people with means will visit a Nissan showroom anyway. I think Nissan knows this as well.

In twenty-odd years Nissan's managed to swap places with Hyundai in the manufacturer/dealer food chain. Ghosen should be so proud of his legacy.

[Summerwolf]

[Jordanwolf]

Originally Posted by RetroRacer

The brainwashing makes complete sense then!

In all seriousness though, I feel the new cars will noticeably perform better, even on the same chassis.

Your Civic Type R is a prime example, if you drive a 2019 on track (the year you have) and drive a 2020 Type-R right after, the improvements to the suspension, brakes, etc are IMMEDIATELY apparent. I noticed right away how much they improved the 2020.

That’s how the new twins will be to me I feel, even though the same chassis the improvements made will be noticeable right off the bat.

Many people won’t like the new cars, even if improved. I’m ok with that!

The suspension changes were made more for the road than the track. Now if you said 2019 vs 2021 LE I'd buy it, the LE is supposedly 1 second faster than the same year normal car, but the LE has different suspension tuning again and track tires stock.

The rotor changes are a pretty nice and healthy change, but those were heat capacity changes due to 2piece vs 1piece, the pads are the same.

In addition to the above, the 2019 to the 2020+ is still the same generation, there not about to make some HUGE leaps in performance like they did from FK2 to FK8.

I'm excited for these new twins, but boy is that BRZ front end real ugly.

[RetroRacer]

TCoat- I simply mentioned the fact that for someone who tracks their cars, that FOR THE SAME price the PP BRZ was the better buy for the added suspension, brake improvements.
I will always love the Hakone, but I stand by what I said about the PP being the better buy for the same $. Also, Hakone was under 600 built if I recall correctly, to say just as many are being tracked as PP cars is utter nonsense. Again, I’m at the track often, especially in 2021. I’ve seen 2 Hakone ever on track here, but dozens of BRZ PP cars. Again you DONT track your car so like always you speak without any knowledge, just bias.

Also, my credit is phenomenal at over 820, they didn’t “sell the car to someone else because of my credit” but told me they couldn’t locate one mid last year, but only after promising me they could, getting me into the dealer and after running my credit. They then tried to get me to buy another car, which is a common trap tactic by dealers. Get your facts straight, I’m very responsible financially. When I did actually locate a Hakone 3 hours away that was new, I got pre-approved over the phone and had finalized a price with the dealer. They knew I was unable to make it there for 2 days as I was at a conference for work that week. Another buyer came in and offered them more, so they sold it to him instead. Had NOTHING to do with credit. I love the Hakone color, always have, but mine would have had to get modded suspension and brakes immediately for my track use. That’s why I mentioned the PP being a better “starting” car for people like myself. They most certainly aren’t as eye catching as the Hakone however, no doubt.

I never said the performance of the new car will be “earth shattering” like you say. If you reread the bottom of the last page I state how the performance of the new cars won’t blow us away, but that we will definitely notice an improvement over the previous model. Again I know people who HAVE been in the new car and can attest to this.

And AGAIN you bring up looks, which are subjective to each person, who cares?
As stated by others on the previous page your BIAS and hate towards these new cars is completely evident, and you and a few others are acting like immature children, grow up.

“If I actually buy one instead of talking about it”....again if you ever take off your hate blinders and read I’ve stated that I love the current car, and drive my GF’s 19 BRZ PP often, which is why I’m looking forward to the new car, and sold my Camaro to buy the new car. I can’t buy what isn’t being sold yet, but that may be too hard for you to comprehend...

Difference is, I welcome the improvements and don’t bash the new model on every forum thread simply because “it doesn’t look good” blah blah.

Every piece of data I’ve mentioned on the new cars statistically have been FACT, not rumor or filled with bias/hate like your posts. Again, if you actually did research you would know this to be true.

You can hate me and the new car all you’d like. Your immaturity speaks loudly.

[RetroRacer]

Originally Posted by Jordanwolf

The suspension changes were made more for the road than the track. Now if you said 2019 vs 2021 LE I'd buy it, the LE is supposedly 1 second faster than the same year normal car, but the LE has different suspension tuning again and track tires stock.

The rotor changes are a pretty nice and healthy change, but those were heat capacity changes due to 2piece vs 1piece, the pads are the same.

In addition to the above, the 2019 to the 2020+ is still the same generation, there not about to make some HUGE leaps in performance like they did from FK2 to FK8.

I'm excited for these new twins, but boy is that BRZ front end real ugly.

The limited editions are VERY nice. The local dealer here has one but it’s listed for over $10,000 over msrp!! Someone will still buy it though lol.
The new type r’s are extremely fun to drive, I’m sure you’re enjoying yours a ton, it’s by far the best FWD car ever made.

I agree completely that the new BRZ front isn’t good looking at all, I definitely prefer the Toyota model more, which is why I’ve decided on that car.

[Sasquachulator]

guys the 6.2 ish time bandied about (for the first gen) is the C&D number, not the official number.

After some searching i found that the official time is (way back for when the Scion FRS first came out)

Official 0-60 is 7.3 for 6MT and 8.0 for 6AT.
Official 1/4mi is 15.6 for 6MT and 16.1 6AT.

found it in this thread:
https://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5494

Sounds like this makes more sense if the official 0-100 is 7.7 or so.

I honestly thought ive seen 6.6 and 6.9 before but what do i know....the performance metric for this car is all over the place.

[Stonehorsw]

Originally Posted by ZDan

Yes, *slightly* heavier, 48 lb., +1.7%, which theoretically should amount to something a bit less than 1mph slower in the 1/4. The argument had been that 215/40-18 PS4s would give a big improvement in acceleration vs. 215/45-17 Primacies, and that's exactly what's compared here. If the new car gets to 62mph 1.1 seconds quicker, it is not because it's on 215/40-18 PS4s vs 215/45-17 Primacies.



I'm saying that if it really *is* 1.1 seconds quicker to 62, the main factors are better power/weight, no torque dip (doesn't affect acceleration times from higher speeds but does for standing start), and ~half of that advantage from being geared taller enough that it doesn't have to upshift to 3rd to hit 62.
Weight distribution is going to be close to the same, other factors are minor...

Anyway, we'll see!

Your assumptions to say that the other factors are minor is based on the current torque x weight ratio, which is incorrect.
You would need to bump the GEN1 to this and then verify if the tires and suspension play a factor, as both may not be the bottleneck currently, but may become with a slightly power bump.

Yes, the main factor for the time reduction is the power bump, then the removal of the dip (it makes difference on both of the measurements here) and then other items.

When I mentioned TS, I also mentioned the wheel size (highr inertia) and aero drag.

Regarding weight distribution, this can get worse if they did not move the engine, as engine is heavier( Gen1 has about 5” of clearance on the bay, not sure if due to safaty factors, but it is ugly).

[RetroRacer]

Originally Posted by Summerwolf

Some quick “rough” translations for you

3:15 Beautiful 86 drift
8:16 86 has a more exciting initial throttle response whereas BRZ has a more linear throttle response
8:35 BRZ has deeper roll in the back?
9:10 BRZ has a very stable cornering feel, no sense of insecurity at all
12:14 86 feels like a sharpened version of the early years zenki 86
14:10 86 has a very excitable feeling from the chassis
14:43 BRZ has a stable feeling, but within that stability you can feel that it is FR
16:45 BRZ despite being FR has the sense of security of an AWD car
17:37 It has started to rain but the stability and security is still very high
17:55 BRZ seems to have inherited Subaru’s AWD philosophy
18:45 When BRZ is made to slide it is very controllable
19:20 BRZ characteristics is not only one of composure, it also accepts drifting
20:30 In 86 you can feel the GR characteristics from the Yaris and Supra
22:15 In the 86 you can sense the flavour of the Yaris and Supra. In contrast, in the BRZ you can sense the flavour of the Impreza and Levorg
22:50 You can really feel the added distinct flavours from each company between the BRZ and 86 with this generation
23:43 You get a grand touring sense from the BRZ
24:15 When you wring it out it is fun as a FR car, but when you’re not the Subaru DNA is great
24:40 In 3rd gear, the 86’s rear still drifts, but in the BRZ the rear stays planted in 3rd.
24:45 In 2nd gear you can get the BRZ to drift but the rear stability is distinct

This is what one publication was able to gather from translating it:

"They report, first and foremost, that the new cars feel quite different from the last generation. And that should hardly come as a surprise since both make more power. The new BRZ is quoted as making 228 hp in the US, but both can make up to 232 hp depending on their market. That’s up from 205 hp for the last generation.

As a result, both get to 60 mph in just 6.3 seconds, which is 1.1 seconds faster than the outgoing models. More than that, though, the drivers also report that the cars are more refined. Neither has lost its sports car edge, but they seem to be a little quieter at idle.

The good news for fans of the RWD dynamics is that little of their sense of fun seems to have been lost in the generational transition. Both cars handle well thanks to their low center of gravity and low weight.

Although both hosts appreciate the BRZ, they seem to have a slight preference for the GR 86. The Toyota is a little more tail happy, whereas the BRZ seems to have a more neutral character.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by ZDan

I don't think the current car takes 1.2 seconds to get from 60mph to 62mph...
6.2 second 0-60 times we see are kinda cheating, they give themselves a 1 foot rollout.

The 7.4 seconds the press release references as 0-62 time, that must be truly from zero without a 1ft rollout, soft launch, or possibly it's an automatic? In that same 7.4-second run to 62mph they reference, I would bet they did not get to 60mph in 6.2...

tS was 48 lb. heavier, and the data is in pretty coarse units, 6.2 seconds given could be 6.24, and the tS at 6.3 could be 6.25. Likewise for 94 vs. 95mph, could be 94.4 vs. 94.5. Anyway it's clear that the tS doesn't get any acceleration advantage from its PS4 tires, not enough to make up for it's modestly (+1.7%) greater weight anyway...

I have to be a bit skeptical of the Toyota press release claiming that big an improvement 0-62. But if it really *is* 1.1 seconds quicker to 60, a lot of that is likely not having to upshift to 3rd, that's ~0.5(ish) right there. And the rest due to better power/weight and no big torque dip.

Did Toyota do a rollout test? If not then that could explain the difference in traction off the line and why the difference with the tires didn’t matter on their 0-60 between the Primacies and tS’ PS4s, but why it did make such a huge difference 70-0 with a 151 foot distance instead of a 164 foot distance, despite the extra 48lbs on the tS.