New ICE Vehicles Banned in California by 2035

[soundman98]

Originally Posted by funwheeldrive

Can we try fixing our borders and getting rid of the millions of illegal aliens before we attempt M4A?

that depends. do you like blueberries?
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/coronav...s-unharvested/

[Tomm]

Originally Posted by soundman98

that depends. do you like blueberries?
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/coronav...s-unharvested/

Visa holders aren’t illegal immigrants though.

That farmers gonna have bigger problems because 60% of his sales are restaurants.

[soundman98]

Originally Posted by Tomm

Visa holders aren’t illegal immigrants though.

That farmers gonna have bigger problems because 60% of his sales are restaurants.

you haven't talked to many famers.

the one's i know learned 20 years ago to not dig too deeply into any info the pickers give unless it's flat out wrong. it's quite 'normal' for many pickers to have 3-4 different social security numbers, with different names.

it's funny at first that a guy was jose last year, and juan this year, but gets sad really fast when the realization kicks in how abysmal our immigrant system is.

but no one else will pick produce...

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by Rampage

I see that Massachusetts will also ban the sale of new gasoline powered cars by 2035 and the article mentions that New Jersey has the same plan. Fortunately it only applies to new vehicles.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/news...4x2?li=BBnb4R5

I fixed it.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by funwheeldrive

Can we try fixing our borders and getting rid of the millions of illegal aliens before we attempt M4A?

Why?

[Tomm]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

Why?

Why not?

[Tomm]

Originally Posted by soundman98

you haven't talked to many famers.

the one's i know learned 20 years ago to not dig too deeply into any info the pickers give unless it's flat out wrong. it's quite 'normal' for many pickers to have 3-4 different social security numbers, with different names.

it's funny at first that a guy was jose last year, and juan this year, but gets sad really fast when the realization kicks in how abysmal our immigrant system is.

but no one else will pick produce...

I know a lot of farmers but I generally don’t ask them ab the workers’ citizenship status.

Don’t you think it’s a problem that there are those with 3-4 SSNs? Shouldn’t we do something ab it?

I’m not arguing for booting people out who are just trying to make a living. Im arguing that if people are wanting to roll out a system that will give citizens free healthcare, don’t you think we should have an effective immigration policies first. I do.

[bcj]

"Fix" racists first.

[soundman98]

Originally Posted by Tomm

I know a lot of farmers but I generally don’t ask them ab the workers’ citizenship status.

Don’t you think it’s a problem that there are those with 3-4 SSNs? Shouldn’t we do something ab it?

I’m not arguing for booting people out who are just trying to make a living. Im arguing that if people are wanting to roll out a system that will give citizens free healthcare, don’t you think we should have an effective immigration policies first. I do.

i can't find it any more, but there was an article 3-4 years ago, back when a lot of this immigration stuff was a really hot button topic about a farmer in a state that started enforcing all of the immigration stuff. it talked about how he was posting ad's everywhere, offering up to $16/hr to pick his produce(minimum wage at the time was something like $5-7/hr), but he couldn't get anyone but illegals to do it, and with the new enforcement at the time, he was looking at half to 3/4's of his crop going bad because no one would do the work.

at the time, i had a big conversation with a few other people about how we as americans are shifting our society away from hand-on jobs(a very critical part of the societal shift from a manufacturing society to a service society), where everyone wants to become a middle manager or better(in my research, this began during the Reagan administration, after his people came to the conclusion that we were falling behind china in education, and he started pushing for college education to what it's become today). it leaves a vacuum in the lower end of the workforce, that historically allows others in much worse positions to pull themselves up.

but because our immigration system has become a legal rats nest of red tape and bureaucracy that has made it almost impossible for anyone to get through the system without first having money to begin with(which they then typically shoot for the higher-paid positions, naturally), it only serves to further the manufacturing/hands-on gap, as less and less people are willing or able to step into those roles.

it's an interesting conversation, that eventually ends with "everything in moderation", and our current system weighs too heavily to the collegiate side to offer any alternative.

Originally Posted by bcj

"Fix" racists first.

it's a historic "Us vs. Them." it will never be fixed. the divide will only grow larger as we all create and maintain deeper individual beliefs.

[bcj]

Originally Posted by soundman98

it's a historic "Us vs. Them." it will never be fixed. the divide will only grow larger as we all create and maintain deeper individual beliefs.

"Them" are all fake now and are no longer human. Thanks.

Jim Crow continues unabated.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by Tomm

Why not?

Because the two issues aren’t dependent. It is like saying shouldn’t we have an effective immigration policy before we decriminalize marijuana?

Originally Posted by Tomm

I know a lot of farmers but I generally don’t ask them ab the workers’ citizenship status.

Don’t you think it’s a problem that there are those with 3-4 SSNs? Shouldn’t we do something ab it?

I’m not arguing for booting people out who are just trying to make a living. Im arguing that if people are wanting to roll out a system that will give citizens free healthcare, don’t you think we should have an effective immigration policies first. I do.

The implications from this statement...

Can we try fixing our borders and getting rid of the millions of illegal aliens before we attempt M4A?

...is that we will pay for immigrants to use our healthcare. They already do that. Nothing is preventing anyone from using our most expensive services now: emergency services. I can’t go to Germany and schedule a free knee replacement surgery just because they have M4A.

...is that we will be burdened with more expenses. This has already been factored into the cost of M4A, which has been shown by studies and bipartisan research groups to be cheaper than our current system, saving us trillions.

Even the Mercatus Center, a right-wing think tank, recently found about $2 trillion in net savings over 10 years from a single-payer Medicare for All system.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/thehill...es-money%3famp

The whole line of reasoning is ignorant or it borders on racism and xenophobia. This country is built on immigrants. These people who are coming from all over the world are often harder working and are less likely to be involved in criminal activity than the average citizen. They contribute to the economy more than they take from social services. They pay taxes more often than they don’t, adding money to social security and other programs they will never get to use. If there were less obstacles then I’m sure even more would pay taxes. This might be why @bcj said to fix racists first.

IRS estimates that about 6 million unauthorized immigrants file individual income tax returns each year. Research reviewed by the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office indicates that between 50 percent and 75 percent of unauthorized immigrants pay federal, state, and local taxes. Illegal immigrants are estimated to pay in about $7 billion per year into Social Security. In addition, they spend billions of dollars per year, which supports the US economy and helps to create new jobs. The Texas State Comptroller reported in 2006 that the 1.4 million unauthorized immigrants in Texas added almost $18 billion to the gross state product, and contributed $1.58 billion in state revenue, while costing the state about $1.16 billion in services used.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Econ...dgetary_impact

Another example from the article:

Moreover, studies have also shown that not providing illegal immigrants with a decent healthcare might actually cost the country in the long-run rather than save expenses. In 2000, researchers compared the perinatal outcomes and costs of illegal women with and without prenatal care and inferred the impact of denial of prenatal benefits to illegal immigrants in California. Nearly 10% of illegal women had no prenatal care. These women were nearly 4 times as likely to be delivered of low birth weight infants and more than 7 times as likely to be delivered of premature infants as were illegal women who had prenatal care. For every dollar cut from prenatal care, an increase of $3.33 in the cost of postnatal care and $4.63 in incremental long-term cost were expected. Elimination of publicly funded prenatal care for illegal women could save the state $58 million in direct prenatal care costs but could cost taxpayers as much as $194 million more in postnatal care, resulting in a net cost of $136 million initially and $211 million in long-term costs. Although their parents are illegal immigrants, these children are actually U.S citizens.

The reality is that the majority of illegal immigrants come here legally and simply overstay their visas. They come on work visas, student visas and family/tourist visas. The border isn’t even our biggest source of illegal immigration, yet it is what people chiefly focus on.

https://www.npr.org/2019/01/10/68366...e-data-tell-us

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by soundman98

i can't find it any more

Something similar wasn’t too hard to find:

https://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/05/u...ant-labor.html

For years American corporations actively recruited workers in Mexico to come here on work visas, and then everyone got xenophobic when the demographic landscape shifted, and we suddenly decided to boot everyone out who had built a life here for years. It was messed up.

There is already a problem, and it will only get worse. Undocumented immigration is more of a benefit than a burden. We should have an easier path to citizenship and an easier path to getting work visas.

https://www.ucdavis.edu/news/califor...nough-workers/

[soundman98]

Originally Posted by bcj

"Them" are all fake now and are no longer human. Thanks.

Jim Crow continues unabated.

have you followed any of the google firing of their co-lead of AI, Timnit Gebru?

there's not a ton of factual info, but what is there seems to imply that she had a number of preconceived notions on racism and AI, that biased in the direction that she seemed to think that white people set up computers to discriminate against people of color. it seems she made a lot of demands(the demands and their specifics are murky at best though) that were somewhat related to this as well..

everyone loves to highlight white-on-black, but always seem to forget that it works the other way around as well.

i've come to the conclusion over the years working in a variety of different houses that different ethnicities are raised, taught, and encouraged/discouraged in extremely different ways. many of these methods are directly counter-intuitive to other ethnicities. it's a nice idea for us all to sit around the campfire and sing kumbaya, but the reality is that it will likely never happen. because the cultural divide is too great.

most recent example: back before covid, my pastors house was teepeed by the youth group. it was a fun prank for the kids, and the pastor had a good laugh over it. he thanked them for the months-supply of toilet paper.

a few days later, a black neighbor knocked on his door, and started apologizing for the local community and the horrific way they've treated him, and if he'd already filed a police report. it took a while for him to even understand what she was going on about, but finally realized that she was talking about the teepee job that had been done in fun.

they got to talking, and it came about that in her original culture, to cover someone's house like that was a sign of significant disgrace. to her, it would have been no worse to have burned a cross with the kids chanting around it in white hoods.

after white american culture was explained to her a little more, she started to relax some, and my pastor learned an aspect of another culture that he'd never heard of, or had ever even considered to exist. but once it was explained to him, he was the one apologizing and trying to better understand.

there are so many acceptable nuances like this to one culture that are flagrant acts of violence in other cultures that it's impossible not to brush up against them from time to time. because we are all so engrained in our individual beliefs being 'the right way', less and less we offer the patience and time to understand others beliefs and how they differ from our own. because of that the divide(label it racism if you want) between cultures only stands to grow, not shrink.

[Tomm]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

Because the two issues aren’t dependent. It is like saying shouldn’t we have an effective immigration policy before we decriminalize marijuana?

Not dependent but they definitely impact each other. I would argue more so that the two examples you cited.

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

The implications from this statement...

Rather presumptuous.