New ICE Vehicles Banned in California by 2035

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by AnalogMan

There are many potential 'solutions'.

My last statement you quoted was more about minimum wage and wage equity than healthcare.

I agree that healthcare needs to be affordable, portable and universal. I just don't think M4A or single payer of any sort is the answer.

Open up insurance across state lines, and lets see what the free market with a government backup does first. Provide subsidies like AHA does for those that can't afford it outright based on income and mandate all insurance companies accept it against their policies. Maybe that's a start.

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by Dadhawk

I don't know what the real "answer" is, but I don't think it's one that can be legislated.

Real answer is to outlaw bribery and reform campaign financing. Absolutely *is* legislatable, but our legislators are bought and paid for by corporate $$$$$$$

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by AnalogMan

The goals are mutually exclusive: as a society, is our priority to maximize corporate profits, or to maximize the quality of healthcare and how many people have it?

Pick one.

I pick 2nd one, extended such that we *all* have healthcare.

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by ZDan

Real answer is to outlaw bribery and reform campaign financing. Absolutely *is* legislatable, but our legislators are bought and paid for by corporate $$$$$$$

One in the same to me since its unlikely either will happen.

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by AnalogMan

..They took profit out of the picture and instead used the money for salaries for physicians and nurses, hospital equipment and staff, and medicines.

Our costs are so high because of how much must go to pay for the profits of all the for-profit companies involved in delivering our healthcare. Every dollar that goes to corporate profits is a dollar that doesn't go for physicians, nurses, or anything else that actually provides healthcare to people.

I'm sorry but personnel costs are a big part of the issue with healthcare in the US. Have you seen what physicians make? It's so high that the Bureau of Labor Statistics I quoted earlier doesn't even list an average, only that it's "over $208,000 per year". Along with everything else, that will have to be reigned in to make healthcare "affordable".

Here's a comparison from a UK website, notice the differences:

[AnalogMan]

Originally Posted by Dadhawk

I'm sorry but personnel costs are a big part of the issue with healthcare in the US.

Of course! This opens up a whole 'nother can of worms about why personnel costs are so high in the U.S. A part of the reason is malpractice. Malpractice insurance isn't cheap. If you had tort reform so that anyone couldn't easily sue anyone else for anything and everything under the sun, with the possibility of 8- and 9-figure settlements, and brought litigation costs down to a level comparable with other countries, physicians wouldn't have to make as much money because they wouldn't be paying out so much for malpractice insurance.

It's also partly a function of the top end of the market driving demand. Wealthy consumers who can afford to pay for their own healthcare demand, and can pay for, the best cardiologists, neurologists, cosmetic surgeons, etc., especially in major cities like New York, Boston, etc. I imagine primary care physicians or pediatricians in poor rural areas aren't raking in 7-figure salaries (but their malpractice insurance still needs to be paid for).

Then there's yet another can of worms with costs of schooling. Medical school in the U.S. isn't cheap. In France, if you get in, medical training is virtually free. Having a national healthcare system, combined with nationally-paid medical training, seems to make costs a lot more reasonable than in the U.S.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by Dadhawk

I'm sorry but personnel costs are a big part of the issue with healthcare in the US. Have you seen what physicians make? It's so high that the Bureau of Labor Statistics I quoted earlier doesn't even list an average, only that it's "over $208,000 per year". Along with everything else, that will have to be reigned in to make healthcare "affordable".

Here's a comparison from a UK website, notice the differences:

We have some nurses making more than doctors, TBH.

Doctors in this country also need to pay $200k for med school on top of their undergraduate. They are saddled with debt and don't start making money until their early thirties. A nurse finishing college at 22 is better off than a doctor finishing residency at 30-33 until age 54 or something, when the higher salary of the doctor finally crosses his net worth over the nurse's net worth. Why? The nurse had a head start on income with less school debt. In other countries, college is free. Getting in is a matter of going to college prep schools and merit. That is why the comparison doesn't make sense.

France and Germany have free college. England use to have free college, but they went away with that, and it is yet to be seen if there will be long term consequences for short term gains. Pretty sure Spain is free or tuition is about as bad as community college here.

https://www.investopedia.com/article...ge-tuition.asp

I should add, if you think $200k is bad then you should see the salaries of the top execs. My hospital's execs are making half a mill, and they aren't even CEOs for big, big companies.

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by Dadhawk

I'm sorry but personnel costs are a big part of the issue with healthcare in the US. Have you seen what physicians make? It's so high that the Bureau of Labor Statistics I quoted earlier doesn't even list an average, only that it's "over $208,000 per year". Along with everything else, that will have to be reigned in to make healthcare "affordable".

Doctors deserve $208k/year way way WAY more than health insurance CEOs deserve $20M/year. Their jobs are non-essential. So let's start with eliminating the need for people to buy insurance from profit-driven corporations who by god are going to charge the MAXIMUM and give you the MINIMUM in return. And of course drop you if you get sick enough to lose your job and are unable to afford the jacked-up rates to keep them...

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by Dadhawk

My last statement you quoted was more about minimum wage and wage equity than healthcare.

I agree that healthcare needs to be affordable, portable and universal. I just don't think M4A or single payer of any sort is the answer.

Open up insurance across state lines, and lets see what the free market with a government backup does first. Provide subsidies like AHA does for those that can't afford it outright based on income and mandate all insurance companies accept it against their policies. Maybe that's a start.

It isn't about minimum wage for me or determining what a living wage means. It is about corporations and CEOs making millions and billions and not sharing the profit with their employees to the tune that their employees struggle to live to such an extent that I have to pay via my tax dollars, so these employees can have food stamps or whatever. Walmart and the Waltons are one of the richest companies and families in the world, but they can't afford to pay their employees enough, so their employees don't qualify for government assistance and can make ends meet. That is insane to me that I am supplementing the income of one of the richest families in the world.

With healthcare, there is no need to hold onto a system that is broken. As long as people can't be turned away from ERs private insurance will forever be paying for non-payers and non-payers will gamble going into bankruptcy if a large event happens. There is no other fix for this except universal healthcare where everyone has to contribute something. Universal healthcare removes profits and high executive salaries from insurance, and it simplifies the billing department for hospitals and doctor's offices. We don't have to wonder. It has been overwhelming demonstrated to be the case in other countries and with bipartisan studies. Cheaper with better outcomes. There would be losers. No doubt.

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

There is no other fix for this except universal healthcare where everyone has to contribute something. Universal healthcare removes profits and high executive salaries from insurance, and it simplifies the billing department for hospitals and doctor's offices. We don't have to wonder. It has been overwhelming demonstrated to be the case in other countries and with bipartisan studies. Cheaper with better outcomes. There would be losers. No doubt.

I've already said it's broke and it needs to be fixed but we already have an example of Uncle Sam lead healthcare (VA anyone?) and having personally had relatives with experience in that system, no thanks.

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by ZDan

Doctors deserve $208k/year way way WAY more than health insurance CEOs deserve $20M/year.

A private company can pay its employees (at both end of the spectrum) what the market will bear, and that's what happens. People underestimate the impact the members of the c-suite have on how a company runs and survives. Are there abuses, sure, just like with everything else. Folks are just smoking some good stuff though if they think letting the Feds run healthcare is somehow going to magically make it better.

Remember this is the same people that just passed as "COVID recovery bill" that was over 5,000 pages long and were able to completely understand it with just 2 hours before they voted on it.

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

We have some nurses making more than doctors, TBH..

Yea, my system likely does as well, particularly nurse practitioners.

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by Dadhawk

A private company can pay its employees (at both end of the spectrum) what the market will bear, and that's what happens. People underestimate the impact the members of the c-suite have on how a company runs and survives. Are there abuses, sure, just like with everything else. Folks are just smoking some good stuff though if they think letting the Feds run healthcare is somehow going to magically make it better.

Remember this is the same people that just passed as "COVID recovery bill" that was over 5,000 pages long and were able to completely understand it with just 2 hours before they voted on it.

Millions of Americans being able to just go to the damn doctor, get their insulin, etc., will be worth the *effort* it will take us to make M4A work.

Profit-driven healthcare is not working. Only reason these CEOs are "worth" millions is because of how well they are screwing us over.
We are paying far more than other countries for less desirable outcomes. We can do a lot better. We must do a lot better..

[Captain Snooze]

The health insurance fund I pay money to is not-for-profit. Weird huh?