Honda considering an S2000 successor - report

[Red-86]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

I have never met an engineer that I thought had a soul. Figured they all sold them and that is how they became engineers!


Even the bean counters are not to blame. The buying public is!

Yep, the problem is us, the buying public. If we don’t buy enough of the things brand new, to create the demand to make it profitable enough for auto makers to continue making them, eventually they will stop. This includes the forum ‘geniuses’ who boast that they never buy a sports car brand new, because only suckers buy new and face depreciation. Yep, so genius that if everyone does that eventually there will be no new sports cars sold new at all, and then used market values will get ever more expensive as the limited pool of used cars diminishes every year as they break down, get crashed or rust off the roads. Genius!

[DarkSideFRS]

Originally Posted by TommyW

You mean the sedan with FWD?

Yes, a fwd sedan that can run circles around any rwd 86

I don't trust subie motors anymore after my recall fiasco and my friend's STI getting rid knock... Add being underpowered, esp for the motors in the 86... The motor in the CTR is amazing.. tons of power and very reliable

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by DarkSideFRS

Yes, a fwd sedan that can run circles around any rwd 86

You mean half a circle before it overheats

[DarkSideFRS]

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

You mean half a circle before it overheats

overheats after a full track day and the 2020 model resolved that issue

86 can't even run on a track without an oil cooler

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by DarkSideFRS

overheats after a full track day and the 2020 model resolved that issue

86 can't even run on a track without an oil cooler

Hahaha no. Didn't you tell me you never tracked your FR-S when you had it? You don't need an oil cooler. Plenty of guys track without one. It's just nice to have if you start tracking often. I did a full track season (8-10 events) before putting one in.

I was just joking about the CTR, but the overheating issue are pretty widely known. If you're a decent driver on a hot day, you won't make it through a single session, let alone a full track day. I don't really have much interest in the CTR, but looks like some people are still having overheating issues on the 2020 models on certain tracks.

https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...y-maintenance/

The most significant letdown materialized during a track day at the 1.9-mile GingerMan Raceway in South Haven, Michigan. In mid-80-degree temperatures, the Civic couldn't manage a single hot lap without running excessively hot and pulling power. It's no surprise that Honda increased the Type R's grille opening by 13 percent as part of its updates for 2020. That said, we brought along a 2020 model for comparison, and it didn't fare much better. The Type R just doesn't cope well with heat on short racetracks.

[DarkSideFRS]

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

Hahaha no. Didn't you tell me you never tracked your FR-S when you had it? You don't need an oil cooler. Plenty of guys track without one. It's just nice to have if you start tracking often. I did a full track season (8-10 events) before putting one in.

I was just joking about the CTR, but the overheating issue are pretty widely known. If you're a decent driver on a hot day, you won't make it through a single session, let alone a full track day. I don't really have much interest in the CTR, but looks like some people are still having overheating issues on the 2020 models on certain tracks.

https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...y-maintenance/

i didn't track mine due to the ticking time bomb that i used to call my fa20 motor, but i know plenty of folks who did and had major issues after they did haha... it might just be me, but i have never seen a platform with this many engine issues on my 20+ years on various forums lol

[Lynxis]

Originally Posted by DarkSideFRS

i didn't track mine due to the ticking time bomb that i used to call my fa20 motor, but i know plenty of folks who did and had major issues after they did haha... it might just be me, but i have never seen a platform with this many engine issues on my 20+ years on various forums lol

I admit that these aren't Honda motors but at least anecdotally, I find these motors quite robust. At least they aren't EJ motors which I have personally witnessed dozens of failures.


I personally know a dozen people, myself included, who have been tracking our cars no less than 4 times a year, every year since the cars came out and are still taking the cars out regularly. I know exactly one guy who had to replace his motor when he oil starved. Most of us have had the odd minor failure but we're all still running our original motors just fine. Most of the guys in my group run an oil cooler although I and a few others do not, and those of us who do not have had no serious issues.


For my part, my car has been in 2 serious accidents (one front end and one rear end) and the car has been repaired both times, and the motor is the one thing we've never had to touch. It hasn't given me any undue grief so far. I've had 2 minor engine problems, a failed cam timing sensor and a failed coil pack, both of which predate either accident. The cam timing sensor was fixed under warranty and the coilpack cost me $150 and 30 minutes of my time with a 10mm wrench to replace myself.

[TommyW]

Originally Posted by DarkSideFRS

Yes, a fwd sedan that can run circles around any rwd 86

I don't trust subie motors anymore after my recall fiasco and my friend's STI getting rid knock... Add being underpowered, esp for the motors in the 86... The motor in the CTR is amazing.. tons of power and very reliable

an ugly FWD sedan is still an ugly FWD sedan regardless of lap times.

On the track something will always be slower and something will always be faster so choose something that you enjoy driving in the corners. A monkey can press the throttle on the straights.

[WolfpackS2k]

Originally Posted by Ohio Enthusiast

The S2000 wasn't in that market back then either. It cost around $32,000 at 2000, while a Miata of the same year cost $23,000. Inflation adjusted the S2000 would be $50,000 today.

I highly doubt Honda will develop an new S2000 unless they can find a partner to share development costs with. More and more manufacturers partner on niche cars. Even Mazda shared with FCA on the Miata.

I'm well aware of that. But that means nothing. Honda can do whatever they want. It's not like there's some rule they have to adhere to. Nissan Z's have stayed below inflation adjustments for the entire lifespan of the 350 & 370Zs. If Honda wants to build a Boxster competitor (which is basically what the first S2000 was) then it should be priced accordingly (which is to say, at a discount compared to the Boxster b/c it's a Honda not a Porsche).

Additionally, the original S2000 had a bespoke engine, whereas we all know that for a 2nd generation Honda would just use the CTR/Accord engine. Kind of sad, but that's the Honda we live with these days. That lowers development and production costs greatly. Honda's playground for such a car is definitely 40-50k. But all I'd want is a cheaper RWD coupe, a new Prelude IMO! haha.

[WolfpackS2k]

Originally Posted by DarkSideFRS

new NSX is awesome.. but overpriced for sure

new BRZ starts in low $30s and would prob go up to mid $30s... at that price, why pay for an underpowered (and potentially issue filled car.. i mean, it's a subaru motor after all) car when u can spend a tad bit more to get a civic type R with a bulletproff motor and better overall performance? the new s2k would prob be in the low $40s... doubt it would go near $50k

Sorry, we're talking about sports cars here. Not performance cars based on compromised design parameters.

Originally Posted by DarkSideFRS

overheats after a full track day and the 2020 model resolved that issue

86 can't even run on a track without an oil cooler

Don't forget shredded both front tires. I prefer my tires to last a few weekends. That's not asking much of a sub 400hp 3100 lb car.

[DarkSideFRS]

Originally Posted by TommyW

an ugly FWD sedan is still an ugly FWD sedan regardless of lap times.

On the track something will always be slower and something will always be faster so choose something that you enjoy driving in the corners. A monkey can press the throttle on the straights.

gen 1 frs/brz is def a looker (which was why I bought mine), but that got lost with the fugly gen 2 brz lol

CTR looks nice imho except for the rear bumper

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by DarkSideFRS

i didn't track mine due to the ticking time bomb that i used to call my fa20 motor, but i know plenty of folks who did and had major issues after they did haha... it might just be me, but i have never seen a platform with this many engine issues on my 20+ years on various forums lol

I get the sense the failures from the 2013 recalls skew the perception on this forum. Also it seems like a higher percentage of people track, autocross or drift them. Without seeing the actual numbers, it's hard to say.

It's kind of funny because some owners here worry about reliability, but race teams who've put the car through 14 and 24 hour endurance testing love how reliable they think the engine is:

https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/ar...-miata-answer/

The beauty, both Robb and Alex note, is in the 86’s reliability and undemanding maintenance. During the 14-hour Daytona race, the car suffered just one issue: An axle failed as the nearby exhaust pipe got it just a little too hot.

Alex’s shop has long campaigned Spec Miatas, and last September he entered the World Racing League’s 24-hour contest at High Plains Raceway with two cars: one of the two 86 coupes in his stable and a 1994 Miata. After the race, he spent just one day servicing the 86. “The Miata, on the other hand, for the same level of prep took five days,” he recalls. “Everything on that car is, for us, 26 years old.”

He compares that to the coupe. “The 86 has been stellar,” he reports. When Alex purchased the Scion, it had about 11,000 miles on the odometer. After four major endurance races to date covering about 4000 miles total, the engine still puts down the same dyno figures–about 165 horsepower at the wheels. Over-revs haven’t hurt the engine, either, he notes. “All we’ve done is change the oil.”

That's been closer to my experience too. At this point I've done ~35 track days on my engine, most in 85-100F ambient temps. Lots of canyon drives as well. It's never missed a beat other than going through two coilpacks. My engine logs look healthy. At this rate I feel like this engine could do 100 track days or more, but I guess time will tell.

[DarkSideFRS]

your quote is comparing a 26 year old miata to a ~7 year old FRS lol.. of course it's more reliable haha

i have lost all confidence in subaru... the 86 is a great platform, but i wish they used a toyota motor instead... or partnered with Honda instead

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by DarkSideFRS

your quote is comparing a 26 year old miata to a ~7 year old FRS lol.. of course it's more reliable haha

i have lost all confidence in subaru... the 86 is a great platform, but i wish they used a toyota motor instead... or partnered with Honda instead

No forget the Miata comparison. Just focus on their FR-S testing. They ran their FR-S with a stock engine in 4 endurance races (e.g., 14 hr endurance race, 24 hr endurance race, etc.) That's being on track for 24 hrs straight, 14 hrs straight. Zero issues from the engine despite them admitting to over-revs.

Do you really think the CTR engine would have lasted through that kind of testing? No it would have overheated in like 15 min.