All-New 2022 Subaru BRZ Makes Global Debut

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by Dzmitry

I think when talking so specific about competition down to the last second, a certain gear ratio (maybe the 3.9-4.1 for you) will be favorable.

Again, *it depends on the track*. It's not a personal preference thing. At some tracks. 4.1 will be objectively "better". At others, 4.3:1 will be.

But for 99% of this car's use, a higher number ratio is far more exciting, with more torque feel and more gear rowing.

You'll have more "torque feel" at *some* speeds, but way less at other speeds where you have to be in a taller transmission gear!

Gearing doesn't magic you more power/weight, in general acceleration performance is down to power/weight. Lower (numerically higher) gearing means you get a bit more urge in a given gear, but then you have to upshift sooner and now you have way LESS urge. I.e., "fun is conserved"...

Very few people were disappointed with the 4.3 change in the 2017s+, in fact, most have claimed to love it. I can certainly see 4.1 making sense for the new gen, but 3.9 might take that excitement completely away.

Objectively it would still have "more torque feel", i.e. more torque at the wheels, quicker acceleration from *any speed* vs. the 2.0 with 4.3 gears.

But many have talked about the first gear being too short, and so lengthening it out to add another 5 mph or so would make the world of a difference. A little stretch to the second gear would help too, and the rest are fairly solid.

Wait, you are NOW saying how much better it would be to have *taller* gearing? But just in 1st and 2nd? I appreciate close ratios, but you know what else would accomplish this? Going to a TALLER (numerically lower) diff gearing, and making 3-6 transmission gears shorter.

With the new gen being a good bit more powerful, rowing through the gears would be so much fun. It's what we buy a manual for anyway, isn't it?

Either way we're gonna have 6 gears. I'm going to row through the same number of gears whatever the diff gearing. If you want "more rowing" you basically want closer transmission ratios, not lower (numerically higher) diff gearing.

For true competitive racing, I would think an automatic should be the better choice so one could focus more on driving than taking their hands off the wheel and shifting gears.

A *real* trackworthy automatic or dual-clutch is not likely to happen for this car due to development $$$ and weight concerns. It would be nice to have that option, I might consider it, depending on how well-executed and how much $$$ and weight...

[Cephas]

Originally Posted by ZDan

Here's FA20 w/4.3 in black, FA24 w/3.9 in red, FA24 w/4.3 in blue:

This is neat. You're neat.

[Dzmitry]

Originally Posted by ZDan

Again, *it depends on the track*. It's not a personal preference thing. At some tracks. 4.1 will be objectively "better". At others, 4.3:1 will be.

Right, and I'll say it again, you are talking about serious competition where every second matters, and 99% of owners of this car are NOT in that condition, and if they want to be, they would likely be modifying half their car anyway and could swap the differential. This car isn't built to be the best track car ever, it's built to be fun and that fun CAN be had on track.

Originally Posted by ZDan

You'll have more "torque feel" at *some* speeds, but way less at other speeds where you have to be in a taller transmission gear!

I was more referring to how each gear feels on its own in a 4.3 vs 4.1 or 3.9. In other words, 1st gear will feel quicker on a 4.3 vs 4.1, 2nd gear will feel quicker on a 4.3 vs 4.1, etc.. And I wouldn't go so far as to say "way less" at other speeds. We aren't talking HEAPS in difference of mph. By the time you row through a full 3 gears, you are barely up 4-5 mph in a 4.1 vs a 4.3!

Originally Posted by ZDan

Gearing doesn't magic you more power/weight, in general acceleration performance is down to power/weight. Lower (numerically higher) gearing means you get a bit more urge in a given gear, but then you have to upshift sooner and now you have way LESS urge. I.e., "fun is conserved"...

Obviously not, but it gives you more torque PER gear. I would love having more urge in a given gear and have to row through gears quickly to get up to a high speed, it would feel like driving a sequential where you shift every second or two (much slower than a sequential, but fun!). Obviously this is subjective to what I enjoy vs others, but as I've already stated, most people agree that the taller gearing made the first gen better and more fun.

Originally Posted by ZDan

Objectively it would still have "more torque feel", i.e. more torque at the wheels, quicker acceleration from *any speed* vs. the 2.0 with 4.3 gears.

Sure it would, but I was saying something like the 4.1 would match the "character" of gen1 better. 3.9 would change the feel of gen2 completely, and gearing through the car would not be nearly the same as it is in gen1 (at least for the 2017s+).

Originally Posted by ZDan

Wait, you are NOW saying how much better it would be to have *taller* gearing? But just in 1st and 2nd? I appreciate close ratios, but you know what else would accomplish this? Going to a TALLER (numerically lower) diff gearing, and making 3-6 transmission gears shorter.

On specific gears yes, because the first ones were built fairly short. By going TALLER on the final diff, gears like 4th, 5th, and 6th become more useless on our car and it starts to feel like it was built for saving gas. Also, on second thought, what you are saying is basically the SAME thing I'm saying, just done in a different way. The feel would be the same, only you would have to adjust 4 gears vs 2 gears.

Originally Posted by ZDan

Either way we're gonna have 6 gears. I'm going to row through the same number of gears whatever the diff gearing. If you want "more rowing" you basically want closer transmission ratios, not lower (numerically higher) diff gearing.

EXACTLY! That is what a NUMERICALLY HIGHER differential does for you!

Originally Posted by ZDan

A *real* trackworthy automatic or dual-clutch is not likely to happen for this car due to development $$$ and weight concerns. It would be nice to have that option, I might consider it, depending on how well-executed and how much $$$ and weight...

True, I only made the reference to make the claim that a manual for this car was built more for the classic fun sports car, not the record breaking track car.

In conclusion, this is fairly subjective and we don't need to go deeper into discussion about it. You forget I'm making a general statement to support the majority of what people enjoy in this car and how it feels. You seem to be focused more on actual acceleration and speed numbers that would result from a certain ratio vs the other. We both know that's NOT what this car is about.

[ZDan]

Me:

ZDan
Either way we're gonna have 6 gears. I'm going to row through the same number of gears whatever the diff gearing. If you want "more rowing" you basically want closer transmission ratios, not lower (numerically higher) diff gearing.

Originally Posted by Dzmitry

EXACTLY! That is what a NUMERICALLY HIGHER differential does for you!

Changing diff ratios doesn't make trans ratios closer. Whatever the diff ratio, you'll have the *same* rpm drop between gears. What you have described as what you want, longer/taller 1st/2nd gears with "same" upper gears, i.e. closer ratios, can't be achieved by altering diff gear ratio.

[Dzmitry]

Originally Posted by ZDan

Me:


Changing diff ratios doesn't make trans ratios closer. Whatever the diff ratio, you'll have the *same* rpm drop between gears. What you have described as what you want, longer/taller 1st/2nd gears with "same" upper gears, i.e. closer ratios, can't be achieved by altering diff gear ratio.

No, I was adding that as something that would be NICE if they were to go so far as to alter the transmission gears. But the more simple change that I would expect is choosing a proper final diff. In which case, a shorter final diff would be of preference to me and hold the same character gen1 had. Changing the final diff ratio does make trans ratios closer, just not literally, but through the multiplier.

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by Dzmitry

Changing the final diff ratio does make trans ratios closer, just not literally, but through the multiplier.

You have the same rpm drop gear to gear whatever your diff gearing.
Diff gearing does *not* make transmission ratios closer.
With our transmission, shifting at 7400rpm will land you at:
4465rpm in 2nd, 5212rpm in 3rd, 5825rpm in 4th, 6101rpm in 5th, and 5676rpm in 6th, with *any* diff gearing you choose. With 2.7 gears, or 5.5 gears, this will be the case.

[AnalogMan]

Originally Posted by Tokay444

Meh. Citroen had that in the '70s, and they outlawed it here.

My 2019 WRX (in the US) has adaptive headlights. They turn in the direction of the front wheels. Mine has a manual transmission so it doesn't have the Eyesight package. The turning headlights are a noticeable improvement over fixed beams, especially on dark, twisty country roads.

[Sport-Tech]

Originally Posted by Dzmitry

....I would love having more urge in a given gear and have to row through gears quickly to get up to a high speed....

This reminds me of the frequent complaint made about recent MT Caymans and Boxsters by reviewers and some owners: first and second gear are so tall and widely separated in ratio that the transmission really limits one's opportunities to row through the gears at legal speeds anywhere but on certain stretches of the Autobahn. IIRC second gear redlines at slightly over 70 mph in these cars. Not something you'd want to see in lower-powered sports cars like the twins!

[Dzmitry]

Originally Posted by ZDan

You have the same rpm drop gear to gear whatever your diff gearing.
Diff gearing does *not* make transmission ratios closer.
With our transmission, shifting at 7400rpm will land you at:
4465rpm in 2nd, 5212rpm in 3rd, 5825rpm in 4th, 6101rpm in 5th, and 5676rpm in 6th, with *any* diff gearing you choose. With 2.7 gears, or 5.5 gears, this will be the case.

I may be using the wrong wording then. By saying the ratios are closer through the multiplier, I am referring to how quickly the car will rev through the gear vs what the RPM drop will be at the shift. I am aware that the RPM drop is the same no matter what diff.

[Lelandjt]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

No they didn't.


Subaru has had it in their other models for years. My wife's 17 Impreza and her current Outback both have it. Really isn't even that noticeable unless in the pitch black. Fun when you start the car and they both point way out and then come back to center though.
All in all for the BRZ they are just added weight, cost and something else to mess with people that want to mod their lights.

Do you think the aftermarket will sell non-moving headlights that drop significant weight? I'll be looking to cut any weight I can ahead of the front wheels.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Lelandjt

Do you think the aftermarket will sell non-moving headlights that drop significant weight? I'll be looking to cut any weight I can ahead of the front wheels.

No idea. Be surprised if nobody did though. If there is money to be made they will build it.

[Spuds]

Originally Posted by Lelandjt

Do you think the aftermarket will sell non-moving headlights that drop significant weight? I'll be looking to cut any weight I can ahead of the front wheels.

You could just replace the headlights with plastic covers because racecar. That would save a bit more weight.

[jflogerzi]

Originally Posted by Lelandjt

Do you think the aftermarket will sell non-moving headlights that drop significant weight? I'll be looking to cut any weight I can ahead of the front wheels.

Your not gonna drop enough weight to warrant the costs

Sent from my GM1915 using Tapatalk

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by Dzmitry

I may be using the wrong wording then. By saying the ratios are closer through the multiplier, I am referring to how quickly the car will rev through the gear vs what the RPM drop will be at the shift. I am aware that the RPM drop is the same no matter what diff.

"Closer ratios" means the ratios are, closer... Less rpm drop between gears.

You've stated that *actually* you want TALLER 1st and 2nd gears, giving 5mph more in 1st, a bit more in 2nd, with other overall ratios remaining the same. So what you really want is a closer-ratio transmission.

Anyway, 4.1 vs. 4.3 doesn't make any difference to me in the 13-16 and 17+ cars, I've driven both, there's not much in it as far as enjoyment on the street.

New car with 20% more displacement and torque is gonna be a lot of fun anyway, with a 4.3, 4.1, 3.9, or even taller (which I don't expect). 3.9 diff certainly wouldn't kill the character of the car, far from it.
FWIW 3.77 diff would give the desired +5mph in 1st with the existing transmission ratio!