That engine though. Where will it sit among the great 4cyl NA's?

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Blighty

Personally disagree. Reality for me was that it was super annoying and I could absolutely feel that. Its not minor, its a large (and important) part of the rev range for daily driving.

It still felt good over 5-5.5, and it reved out after 7, so if you keep it on the boil its got the right amount of pull (for the car), but yeah frustrating.

If you dont feel it then I can only assume there is some hakone magic going on for you.

I had an FRS before the Hakone. No magic needed. I drove it for 340,000 kilometers and never once though "oh this damned torque dip is messing up my mad skills". City and normal driving I was usually below it. Going balls out blast through it and be above. It just simply was a non issue since I don't mind changing gears to be where I need to be. Ya it would suck for somebody in too high a gear that wants to just step on it but why do that?

[Blighty]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

You are using skewed data as well.
If we use the company provided ideal test data that is displayed on the dash the same as you are using the BRZ one then we get 136 ft.lbs at the bottom of the dip not 120.
Can't use the company data for one and an actual dyno for another and say it is an apples to apples comparison.

Yeah nah that's cool, use that planned performance chart if you wish. I just grabbed the first one I saw.

[Blighty]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

That "enormous amount of torque" is 15% higher than the original engine (excluding a 10% drop for a fraction of a second). Using just paper racing requirements that makes the engine 15% better than the old one.

250nm
Its basically 18% higher than the outgoing one (212Nm * 1.18 = 250.16Nm). and about 22% higher than the one I owned.

Thats a lot. Well, look we live in a world of turbo's and hybrids, in that respect its not a lot - but when a 4cyl has historically large amounts of torque, I think its fair to say it.

Out of context of what it is - a little hyperbolic, sure. But I'm cool with being the hype man.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Blighty

Yeah nah that's cool, use that planned performance chart if you wish. I just grabbed the first one I saw.

The first one you saw has the wrong data on it. Be precise or stay at home!

[Cephas]

Okay so we've beat to death that the new motor will have to prove itself worthy of any accolades.

But the question remains, what are the top 10 4-pot motors of all time?

The motor in the 1903 Wright Flyer weighed 200lb and made all of 8hp, but it changed the world, so I'd say it goes on the list. Also the Willys L134, which made 60hp and 105 ft-lb of torque, when it managed to stay running. What else?

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Cephas

Okay so we've beat to death that the new motor will have to prove itself worthy of any accolades.

But the question remains, what are the top 10 4-pot motors of all time?

The motor in the 1903 Wright Flyer weighed 200lb and made all of 8hp, but it changed the world, so I'd say it goes on the list. Also the Willys L134, which made 60hp and 105 ft-lb of torque, when it managed to stay running. What else?

1961 Pontiac Trophy slant 4. Literally half of a V8 so how could you go wrong?

[alone1i]

Originally Posted by Cephas

Okay so we've beat to death that the new motor will have to prove itself worthy of any accolades.

But the question remains, what are the top 10 4-pot motors of all time?

The motor in the 1903 Wright Flyer weighed 200lb and made all of 8hp, but it changed the world, so I'd say it goes on the list. Also the Willys L134, which made 60hp and 105 ft-lb of torque, when it managed to stay running. What else?

F20C from Honda S2000 definitely one of the top motor of all time. (And number 1 in my list)

[Blighty]

Power wise I've seen this list, with the best from a few manufacturers.

Cosworth Tuned Ford Ecotec/Duratec 2.3L — 285 HP (Bac Mono)
Honda K20A 2.0L — 225 HP
Honda F20C 2.0L — 247 HP
Renault F4RA832 2.0L — 202hp
Nissan SR16VE N1 1.6L — 197 HP
BMW S14B25 2.5L — 235 HP
Porsche M44/12 3.0L — 237 HP
Mercedes Benz M102.992 2.5L — 232 HP
Toyota 3S-GE — 209 hp

If you include engines that found its success in turbos, there are a few more (like the 3SGTE, SR20DET) of course. Not really sure if the Cosworth should be in there (as its not a factory tune).

Its all pretty debatable, and you can see that even the OG FA20 doesn't look out of place in those numbers, though I'd probably say that the 3S-GE beats it.

[Tcoat]

Fiat S.76
The fastest vehicle on earth in 1911
28 liters
NA
290HP but could probably get more with a header and CAI

[Red-86]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Fiat S.76
The fastest vehicle on earth in 1911
28 liters
NA
290HP but could probably get more with a header and CAI

Wow, that's progress for you when the performance engine standard goes from 10HP per 1L to 100HP per 1L today. Imagine the fuel bills on that bad boy.

[Ohio Enthusiast]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Going balls out blast through it and be above. It just simply was a non issue since I don't mind changing gears to be where I need to be.

So far I only found a single instance where the dip is noticeable. A very tight rural 90 degree bend that has poor pavement. I can't take it faster than 28-30 MPH, meaning I'm either near the top of 1st (around 6500 RPM) or right at the dip in 2nd (around 3700 RPM). Accelerating out of that corner really drives home the annoyance of the torque dip. Anything else, I'm well above it in spirted driving or below it in daily driving.

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Ya it would suck for somebody in too high a gear that wants to just step on it but why do that?

Sadly, that's what most enthusiast want today and what most manufacturers cater for - easy power.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Red-86

Wow, that's progress for you when the performance engine standard goes from 10HP per 1L to 100HP per 1L today. Imagine the fuel bills on that bad boy.

Well it looks like gas was about 20 cents a gallon then.
Sounds great until you find out the average hourly income was 30 cents!
Since the current average hourly wage is $19 a gallon of gas now would cost you $13. Makes sense really since they didn't produce gas in the volumes they do now.

[NoHaveMSG]

Originally Posted by Blighty

Its all pretty debatable, and you can see that even the OG FA20 doesn't look out of place in those numbers, though I'd probably say that the 3S-GE beats it.

Don't forget the K24.

Depends on your criteria. Stock unmodified street car it is fine. You start to track or autoX it, even with just light bolt on's and a tune and you run into reliability issues. And as I stated above, if you are a DIY'er they are a pain in the ass to work on.

[Blighty]

Originally Posted by Ohio Enthusiast

So far I only found a single instance where the dip is noticeable. A very tight rural 90 degree bend that has poor pavement. I can't take it faster than 28-30 MPH, meaning I'm either near the top of 1st (around 6500 RPM) or right at the dip in 2nd (around 3700 RPM). Accelerating out of that corner really drives home the annoyance of the torque dip. Anything else, I'm well above it in spirted driving or below it in daily driving.



Sadly, that's what most enthusiast want today and what most manufacturers cater for - easy power.

So expecting to be able to use 3500-5500 is now looked down upon as wanting 'easy power'? Bit harsh, and feel more like an excuse for the torque hole.

I call 2-5.5k that daily driving, and the fact your stating you stick under 3500 (basically what is asked of us to do during engine break-in) for your daily drive is a real shame in my eyes, and shouldn't be viewed as all a real "enthusiast" needs. :/