Drifting - in Auto?

[empower-auto]

Originally Posted by sho220

What does the type of transmission have to do with anything related to drifting?

Are you serious?

[BrandonFYIA]

Rather than argue about what real drifting is or isn't, how about we keep this simple? Could anyone enlighten us on the techniques used on an AT to recreate the "drifting" seen in that video?

[matt30]

The problems with autos is they tend to upshift when the engine get close to redline. When that happens the torque nessisary to keep the wheels loose is lost and you regain traction.

I think in padle shift mode the car won't upshift without your input.

So drifting an auto shouldn't be much differnt than doing in in a MT. I.e. lots of throttle and steering input, enough rpm overhead to sustian the drift, and (if none of that is working) higher speeds and brake application (and/or handbrake).

[Echo]

Hmmm my last experience drifting was six years ago at a few summits in my friend's tuned RX-7.

Started off with the following technique: Third gear go into corner, brake, e-brake + turn, counter-steer, second gear, drive out of corner.

At the end of the day, I'd use a different technique where I'd swing in the opposite direction before forcing the weight to shift and thus slide.

All this was possible because....the tuned RX-7 was pushing over 350 whp and it was manual.

I'd imagine for an underpowered car like the FR-S... (the whole reason I haven't tried it yet is cuz I'm piss-scared of trying it in a fresh new car even in an empty parking lot without heading to a summit to practice) I'd brake, turn, and floor the little f*cker in low gear.

[matt30]

Originally Posted by Echo

Hmmm my last experience drifting was six years ago at a few summits in my friend's tuned RX-7.

Started off with the following technique: Third gear go into corner, brake, e-brake + turn, counter-steer, second gear, drive out of corner.

At the end of the day, I'd use a different technique where I'd swing in the opposite direction before forcing the weight to shift and thus slide.

All this was possible because....the tuned RX-7 was pushing over 350 whp and it was manual.

I'd imagine for an underpowered car like the FR-S... (the whole reason I haven't tried it yet is cuz I'm piss-scared of trying it in a fresh new car even in an empty parking lot without heading to a summit to practice) I'd brake, turn, and floor the little f*cker in low gear.

There is no way you're downshifting while in the middle of a drift.

[sho220]

Originally Posted by matt30

The problems with autos is they tend to upshift when the engine get close to redline. When that happens the torque nessisary to keep the wheels loose is lost and you regain traction.

I think in padle shift mode the car won't upshift without your input.

So drifting an auto shouldn't be much differnt than doing in in a MT. I.e. lots of throttle and steering input, enough rpm overhead to sustian the drift, and (if none of that is working) higher speeds and brake application (and/or handbrake).

Thanks for the explanation there...empower-auto was apparently stunned by my ignorance in the art of doriftooooo....

[TylerLieberman]

Originally Posted by matt30

There is no way you're downshifting while in the middle of a drift.

...Really? I've gone from 3rd to 2nd numerous times mid slide.


Ignorant comments here, I swear

[hav0c]

Originally Posted by TylerLieberman

...Really? I've gone from 3rd to 2nd numerous times mid slide.


Ignorant comments here, I swear

I've learned quite a bit. If you downshift in a slide, whatever it was, it's no longer drifting. If you do something that looks like drifting the only way to tell for sure is if you are using MT - if it's AT it's something else. Possibly "drifting" but definitely not drifting.

[Laurie]

Originally Posted by hav0c

Moto-P discusses drifting AT a bit in an earlier thread comparing the two transmissions:
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showp...9&postcount=20

Exactly right.

I've had my '08 MX5 since new - it's a stick shift and it's VERY good at getting sideways and I enjoy doing it where it is safe to do so.

I've not done any professional stuff but on and off the track I would say I've got quite a lot of experience at it and I'm pretty good at it.

I learned to drive in a Jeep Wrangler first - with lots of desert and gravel tracks to play in - so from a very early start was always playing in 2WD and getting the Jeep sideways on low traction surfaces - teaches you car control at sane speeds




Anyway - when it came to the 86 - for a number of reasons - I chose the auto box. It means more features in our market.


Is it as easy to drift as the MX5? No.. but that's partly because the tires are still less than 5,000 km old.... and the chassis and handling on the 86 is so good that it just wants to stick to the road.


Before buying the automatic 86 I went along for the ride with the pro-drivers at Yas Marina. They had been getting the manual cars sideways continuously all week long. At the Yas Marina circuit event, the 3 drift cars went through 96 tires in 1 week.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B1ynagWYR98"]Toyota 86 drifting - Yas Marina F1 Circuit [Pro race drivers] - YouTube[/ame]

The really interesting part is - they weren't clutch kicking. They were able to hold the drift for a large part of the circuit just by using the scandinavian flick techniques and a bit of trail-braking / turn in while braking to make the rear end light, then back on the power immediately.

So... if you're not using the clutch to do it, and the Auto is in full Traction Control off / Sport / Manual mode - they should be the same.

Except they're not really because the gear ratios are slightly different - so ideal entry speeds to keep you in the ideal RPM range will be different on the two cars. I think with the auto you might need to come in a little hotter.

But other than that, as long as you've got the limited slip differential and the skills - there shouldn't be a problem. The LSD is probably more essential than what type of transmission you have.




I can vouch for the AT car being able to go sideways... But without the clutch pedal to force it, and the phenomenal grip that we get even on the stock tires, you really need to be using the inertia to get it started. Once you've got that it's up to you to hold it and control it.

That means that unlike the lighter, stick shift MX5, the AT 86 is happier if it has some wide open spaces to play in - especially while you're learning.


But turn in quick while on the brakes and it does have an over steer tendancy.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jsgx-kT6fiY"]Track Day 6 July 12 Laurie AE86 - YouTube[/ame]

Skip to 0:40 to see what happened when I entered the corner a little too quick. My local track has quite a strict "no drifting" policy - in the drivers briefing I even get a "Laurie, we're talking to YOU here." on that note So that little slide was not intentional. But it was easily controllable.

After that - safety car was out because someone else scattered some cones so we slowed down a bit and it's less exciting on the clip



Anyway - for the original poster - keep a cool head - practice and build up the skills slowly. It's not easy. It's much better to go home without body damage whenever possible.


Don't fall to peer pressure to put the cars in a head to head now if you haven't got the skills or confidence yet. If your friend with the AE86 is good at it, maybe plan on having a few laps in the passenger seat to see what he's doing and how he controls it.

Keep it safe. Keep it friendly. Keep it shiny.

[sho220]

Originally Posted by hav0c

I've learned quite a bit. If you downshift in a slide, whatever it was, it's no longer drifting. If you do something that looks like drifting the only way to tell for sure is if you are using MT - if it's AT it's something else. Possibly "drifting" but definitely not drifting.

So if you downshift in the middle of a drift, but keep on drifting, it's not really drifting, even though you were drifting, and it looked like you were drifting? And if it looks like you're drifting, but then you stop, someone looks in your car and see's an Auto, then what they thought looked like drifting, wasn't really drifting, it just looked like drifting? Is there an on-line "rule" book for this? I'm very confused...

[hav0c]

Originally Posted by sho220

So if you downshift in the middle of a drift, but keep on drifting, it's not really drifting, even though you were drifting, and it looked like you were drifting? And if it looks like you're drifting, but then you stop, someone looks in your car and see's an Auto, then what they thought looked like drifting, wasn't really drifting, it just looked like drifting? Is there an on-line "rule" book for this? I'm very confused...

It's a simple rule called Schrodinger's Drift: your car is both drifting AND not drifting until empower-auto has inspected your transmission.

[sho220]

Originally Posted by hav0c

It's a simple rule called Schrodinger's Drift: your car is both drifting AND not drifting until empower-auto has inspected your transmission.

I suppose that makes sense...although I think he may just have some wierd trannie fetish...

[Laurie]

Originally Posted by matt30

The problems with autos is they tend to upshift when the engine get close to redline. When that happens the torque nessisary to keep the wheels loose is lost and you regain traction.

I think in padle shift mode the car won't upshift without your input.

So drifting an auto shouldn't be much differnt than doing in in a MT. I.e. lots of throttle and steering input, enough rpm overhead to sustian the drift, and (if none of that is working) higher speeds and brake application (and/or handbrake).

The great thing about the auto in the FR-S / 86 / BRZ is if you press and hold the trac off button until you get the two yellow lights on the dash, and then press the Sport button just once, the car will now do exactly what you tell it. I normally hate auto transmissions in anything other than a land yacht, but the auto box in the 86 platform is one of the most manual-like automatics I've seen this side of a VW DSG / Porsche PDK system.

Set up in these modes, it'll sit on the rev limiter without upshifting, and it'll do sweet f-all if you floor it in 6th at 50 mph. You have to operate the shifter or the paddles...

It's great IMO. It's exactly how an auto-box sports mode SHOULD be.

[matt30]

Originally Posted by TylerLieberman

...Really? I've gone from 3rd to 2nd numerous times mid slide.


Ignorant comments here, I swear

Videos or it didn't happen.

Unless you initiated the drift with the handbrake or lift-off oversteer (which would require a high rate of speed) you're not doing a 3-2 downshift mid-drift. It doesn't even make sense.

How are you going to downshift when your rear wheels have broken traction and you are at or near readline? Real life doesn't work like your video games. Most people that know what they're doing downshift before the corner entry or just slightly afterward.