(GR86) Second Generation FR-S/BRZ insider info...

[ichitaka05]

Originally Posted by Kiske

I just want to see if I in fact (again) wasted a bunch of money on my 2.3l (2.268l actually) HKS Stroker FA20 engine build. Can't wait to benchmark it against OEM.



I also have a big shopping cart of misc things for my car but, I've wanted to hold off until I see the next gen released.

What’s the 2.3L estimate HO/TQ?

[C4RBON]

Well then, it'll be in the 220-225hp range. Not horrible, but also not really inspiring. I care mostly about autox, and it's performance will depend on torque curve, gearing, redline, and final drive ratio. I'd love to see 2nd gear go to 65 mph, and more torque from 2500-5000rpm. Hopefully we get those details on the 18th.

[wbradley]

Well at least 300 HP should be easily attainable with mild FI for the 2.4L, so better than nothing I guess.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Dadhawk

Thing is, the majority of buyers, me included, couldn't care less what they left on the table for the aftermarket. In particular with a new car (vs used) if it isn't provide upfront by the manufacturer with full warranty, it's useless, and not really untapped potential, its just nonexistent.

I personally prefer the GM model where they produce the vehicle in tiers of power with the same family of engines. I can buy it directly from them.

If you are only going to sell one model, then sell it in its best configuration.

This is a very important distinction that sort of get's glazed over on a forum dedicated to any performance type car.
Most, not all, but most, of the NEW cars bought are left stock or mildly modded at least for the first few years. There are of course exceptions to that but as a rule the guys planning heavy modification of a brand new car know exactly what they are doing, have the cash to do it right and don't complain that it didn't come from the factory like that. Guys like myself and you are not interested in modifying anything even though we may be aware of the perceived shortcomings that bother others.
Odds are if they offered this car as it is now or with an optional 300HP turbo the vast majority sold NEW would be the base lower HP one.
Now, I know there will be all sorts of people screaming "no EVERYBODY wants more power" but the reality of the sales stats of cars that do offer lower power versions blows that statements out of the water. There are thousands of base model, lower powered Mustangs, Camaros, Challengers, Chargers, Zs, etc sold for each high powered version.
The reason is simple. Many people just don't care if there are faster cars than theirs.
Much of the whole "they should make it like this" thought process is fed by people that will never buy the car new if they even buy it at all.
The people expecting or even demanding a supercar at an econobox price are always going to exist and since they are the ones that are vocal and hang out on forums it skews the perception in the direction that this is what everybody want. The people that actually buy the new cars are however the ones who's voice get's heard and get's a vote with the manufacturer.

[weederr33]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

This is a very important distinction that sort of get's glazed over on a forum dedicated to any performance type car.
Most, not all, but most, of the NEW cars bought are left stock or mildly modded at least for the first few years. There are of course exceptions to that but as a rule the guys planning heavy modification of a brand new car know exactly what they are doing, have the cash to do it right and don't complain that it didn't come from the factory like that. Guys like myself and you are not interested in modifying anything even though we may be aware of the perceived shortcomings that bother others.
Odds are if they offered this car as it is now or with an optional 300HP turbo the vast majority sold NEW would be the base lower HP one.
Now, I know there will be all sorts of people screaming "no EVERYBODY wants more power" but the reality of the sales stats of cars that do offer lower power versions blows that statements out of the water. There are thousands of base model, lower powered Mustangs, Camaros, Challengers, Chargers, Zs, etc sold for each high powered version.
The reason is simple. Many people just don't care if there are faster cars than theirs.
Much of the whole "they should make it like this" thought process is fed by people that will never buy the car new if they even buy it at all.
The people expecting or even demanding a supercar at an econobox price are always going to exist and since they are the ones that are vocal and hang out on forums it skews the perception in the direction that this is what everybody want. The people that actually buy the new cars are however the ones who's voice get's heard and get's a vote with the manufacturer.

This is my thought. 9/10 the people who say this, either don't plan to or never will buy it. Or own something completely different. It's like the idiots who have been chanting turbo 300hp <$30k twin or they won't buy it. Truth is, they never were. I'm the type to modify my cars a little. I don't need to go bonkers, just a little extra. So if I wanted that, I would make it the way I feel like doing it.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by weederr33

This is my thought. 9/10 the people who say this, either don't plan to or never will buy it. Or own something completely different. It's like the idiots who have been chanting turbo 300hp <$30k twin or they won't buy it. Truth is, they never were. I'm the type to modify my cars a little. I don't need to go bonkers, just a little extra. So if I wanted that, I would make it the way I feel like doing it.

The fun part is that no matter what it comes with there will be people that just up the ante on what it needs before they will buy it anyway. 300Hp? Nope should be 400 or you can't pass anybody.9 inch wheels with $800 tires? Not enough stick need wider and better. Loud factory exhaust? Not enough pops and crackles no good. Real leather interior? Nope needs to be authentic unicorn skin.

It is 100% fine to not like it the way it is but when there are options to change it then just shut up and do it or move onto something else.
I have to get rid of that god awful HU, the monster truck height and the feeble exhaust note but I am not going to write nasty letters to Toyota because they didn't build exactly the car I wanted.

[weederr33]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

The fun part is that no matter what it comes with there will be people that just up the ante on what it needs before they will buy it anyway. 300Hp? Nope should be 400 or you can't pass anybody.9 inch wheels with $800 tires? Not enough stick need wider and better. Loud factory exhaust? Not enough pops and crackles no good. Real leather interior? Nope needs to be authentic unicorn skin.

That's how it's always been about anything since riding the first dinosaur.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by weederr33

That's how it's always been about anything since riding the first dinosaur.

Well yes and no. I guess it is just more obvious now with instant communication.

[PandaEighty-Six]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

The fun part is that no matter what it comes with there will be people that just up the ante on what it needs before they will buy it anyway. 300Hp? Nope should be 400 or you can't pass anybody.9 inch wheels with $800 tires? Not enough stick need wider and better. Loud factory exhaust? Not enough pops and crackles no good. Real leather interior? Nope needs to be authentic unicorn skin.

It is 100% fine to not like it the way it is but when there are options to change it then just shut up and do it or move onto something else.
I have to get rid of that god awful HU, the monster truck height and the feeble exhaust note but I am not going to write nasty letters to Toyota because they didn't build exactly the car I wanted.

^ This. It inevitably helps drive cars to become shells of their former selves, at best. I quite like the twins a lot and am very fond of the platform. This is why I was so happy that they seemed to be sticking with the same chassis.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by PandaEighty-Six

^ This. It inevitably helps drive cars to become shells of their former selves, at best. I quite like the twins a lot and am very fond of the platform. This is why I was so happy that they seemed to be sticking with the same chassis.

The first gen was built with passion to the wants and desires of a very large segment of enthusiasts. They spent a pile of time and money to determine exactly what was wanted and they built it as close as they could within the constraints of requirements and price point. That product did not please a different segment so they wanted it changed. Many want twice the car while paying the same price and ignoring the other obstacles the OEM has.

They didn't care how many they sold the first time around since they only planned to make so many anyway and profit wasn't a high priority. I am nervous that this time around they will look for volume. Volume means meeting the wants of a much much larger segment of the buying public. Those desire will be totally at odds with the people that like the car as it is now. That is how good cars go bad!

[WC-BRZ]

Originally Posted by weederr33

...since riding the first dinosaur.

Funny you say that, tcoat would know

[Kiske]

Originally Posted by ichitaka05

What’s the 2.3L estimate HP/TQ?

Mine never was ran in NA form, being an 11:1 low comp build for my S/C car.


But to give you an idea, the HKS 2.1l Stroker Kit (high comp ver,) stock sized head gaskets with the HKS cams will give you a gain of 18whp/27wtq. It will also move your entire power band to around 500 rpms quicker with peak power being right around 6500rpms vs the stock's 7300rpms.

If you were to use my build but, with the high compression crankshaft I would guess (NA form) it would be right around 226hp/191tq at the wheels with a stock engine components on premium fuel.



Keep in mind I'm using a modified bore and stroke to meet my goal where the current FA24F is just using bore.



In theory the FA20F should be able to safely rev higher. I'm not sure if the ability to rev higher would however be offset by the HKS cams' ability of keeping the FA20's torque from dropping off past 6800rpm. Many have posted that they haven't really been able to justify the increased strain/stress/risk of an increased redline as the FA20 just runs out in the top end. Then the conversation usually becomes your wasting your time... should have turbo'd it... and so on.

[Dirty Harry]

Looks like the BRZ STI concept, some of the design features from that have flowed through too. The fender vent and side skirt obviously, also it appears to be where the front bumper squares off below the headlight. It’ll be interesting to see once fully revealed. Guess we’ll see in 4 days.

[Red-86]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

There are thousands of base model, lower powered Mustangs, Camaros, Challengers, Chargers, Zs, etc sold for each high powered version.

The situation is different in Australia. The higher performance versions of cars frequently outsell the lower ones here. For example, about 80% of the Renault hatchbacks sold here were the high performance RS models (so much so that Renault withdrew the normal models and now just sell the RS Megane here). Similar ratio for Mustangs, 80% of Australian sold Mustangs are the more expensive V8 GT vs only 20% for the more affordable Ecoboost. Australia also has one of the highest uptakes of AMG, M and RS models as a proportion of Euro car sales too.

So whilst what you say may apply to some markets like the USA or Canada, I don’t think it is uniformly true around the world. I am pretty sure that if the gen 2 twins came with a cheap base NA model, and a more expensive turbo model, the turbo would sell in much higher volumes here.