(GR86) Second Generation FR-S/BRZ insider info...

[Sasquachulator]

Originally Posted by JD001

BRZ sales are or were very low, probably sold circa 1000 units in total. I think that it must be the Euro standard as they will be building the RHD platform for Japan/Australia etc.

Canada doesn't sell many units and i believe we're getting them.
So it must be a Euro6 issue and the powertrain of choice going in the BRZ/86.

[gymratter]

if the fake news is to be believed.

No plans" to bring 2021 Subaru BRZ to Europe

Subaru has officially confirmed that the next-gen BRZ sports car will be unveiled on 18 November, but it won't be coming to Europe.

A spokesperson told Autocar that the coupé will be a US-only model and that there are "no plans" to launch it in Europe, as is the case with Nissan's similarly positioned new 400Z.

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/n...aru-brz-europe

[JD001]

Originally Posted by Sasquachulator

Canada doesn't sell many units and i believe we're getting them.
So it must be a Euro6 issue and the powertrain of choice going in the BRZ/86.

Canada/North America similar rules/regulations?

[nikitopo]

Originally Posted by JD001

Just read somewhere that the BRZ gen 2 not coming to Europe.... I wonder if Toyota will follow this thinking?

Subaru UK was very close to leave the market the same way like Mitsubishi. Just imagine that they represent currently something like 0.04% of the car market with similar levels with Alpine. There were same thoughts for other countries like Germany with the sales going very bad. I would say that they are playing now their last card with the e-Boxer models, but BRZ gen 2 is the last thing to think now. Toyota is also busy in sports car segments with the GR Yaris and Supra models. They don't have the same interest for this car anymore. Given that Europe is going to a new lockdown, the sports car segment will be hit even harder.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Sasquachulator

Canada doesn't sell many units and i believe we're getting them.
So it must be a Euro6 issue and the powertrain of choice going in the BRZ/86.

I would think that is possible but can't go straight to that assumption.
Canada has a population of 37 million. The European Union has 513 million. It isn't a matter of total number of units sold it is one of units per capita. If we went purely on the population numbers they should have sold more than the US by about 25% not barely double the Canadian sales numbers.

Neither company has ever shown much eagerness to sell these cars in Europe anyway so dropping them for the small numbers they provided (assuming all they made for the market per plan sold) is not a big deal. Probably cost them way more to get the required certifications than they would make even if they could get them certified.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by nikitopo

Subaru UK was very close to leave the market the same way like Mitsubishi. Just imagine that they represent currently something like 0.04% of the car market with similar levels with Alpine. There were same thoughts for other countries like Germany with the sales going very bad. I would say that they are playing now their last card with the e-Boxer models, but BRZ gen 2 is the last thing to think now. Toyota is also busy in sports car segments with the GR Yaris and Supra models. They don't have the same interest for this car anymore. Given that Europe is going to a new lockdown, the sports car segment will be hit even harder.

These points as well ^
Europe (including the UK) has a far wider range of semi domestic sports cars to chose from so the poor old Twins fight a losing battle for market share right from the start.

[Ohio Enthusiast]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

These points as well ^
Europe (including the UK) has a far wider range of semi domestic sports cars to chose from so the poor old Twins fight a losing battle for market share right from the start.

Europe enjoys a ton of hot hatches in 3 segments (funnily enough, all of these are lumped in the sub-compact category in the US), but I don't think they have anything RWD and lightweight that we don't get in North America (unless you count the Smart based Renault Twingo which is mid engined RWD).

[vh_supra26]

If it does come with a 2.4 wouldn't that mean a price increase due to the EU engine displacement tax?

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Ohio Enthusiast

Europe enjoys a ton of hot hatches in 3 segments (funnily enough, all of these are lumped in the sub-compact category in the US), but I don't think they have anything RWD and lightweight that we don't get in North America (unless you count the Smart based Renault Twingo which is mid engined RWD).

We don't get all versions they do. Also things like Alpines, BMWs, Lotus, Jaguar, Fiat, Mercedes and Alpha Romeo are all considerably cheaper there and don't have the stigma attached to them that they do in the USA.
So... Do we have them here? Mostly. Do they sell here? A few.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by vh_supra26

If it does come with a 2.4 wouldn't that mean a price increase due to the EU engine displacement tax?

Yes. And it would also have to meet their much more stringent controls. As it was they didn't even get the 2017 changes because it was above their limits.

[JD001]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

These points as well ^
Europe (including the UK) has a far wider range of semi domestic sports cars to chose from so the poor old Twins fight a losing battle for market share right from the start.

The series 1 and the 1.5 has classic written all over it... I am going to mothball my car.. it'll be like the 240z in about 100years time. Will need to deal with the Jap imports that will flood the market when people wake-up to the fact that the car is so good..

[Opie]

Originally Posted by vh_supra26

If it does come with a 2.4 wouldn't that mean a price increase due to the EU engine displacement tax?

Unless it's getting the CB18 - 1.8L boxer 4-cylinder - Turbocharged (Derived from the Japan only Levorg), then no penalties...

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Opie

Unless it's getting the CB18 - 1.8L boxer 4-cylinder - Turbocharged (Derived from the Japan only Levorg), then no penalties...

Depends on where. There can be real penalties for a 2.4 in many countries in the EU. Unless they somehow manage to get the emissions lower than the 1.8 or 2 that is.

https://www.acea.be/uploads/publicat...rview_2018.pdf

[Red-86]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Neither company has ever shown much eagerness to sell these cars in Europe anyway so dropping them for the small numbers they provided (assuming all they made for the market per plan sold) is not a big deal. Probably cost them way more to get the required certifications than they would make even if they could get them certified.

I think the biggest hurdle in Europe and the UK was simply the price and the competition.

Here in Australia the starting price for an 86 in 2013 was AU $30k. In the UK it was £27k. If you convert the AU price to £ it would have been just £17k there - ask our Brit friends how popular it would have been at that price! In Germany, an 86 was €30k. Again, if you convert the AU price it would have been just €18k in Germany.

The actual full Euro prices put the twins into direct competition with more powerful and more prestigious coupes, like a BMW 2 series or an Audi TT. In Australia those other Euro coupes are at least twice or three times as much.

Not only that, but as Chris Harris pointed out in his video comparing the 86, 370Z and a used Cayman S, Europeans have access to incredibly affordable used premium sportscars. The Cayman Chris used in his video was worth less than £20k, and it was up against a £27k 86. Here in Australia, new Caymans start around $120k, and the cheapest used ones are still around $60k (£33k).

Conversely, if Australians (who have been mad keen on the twins) had to pay the converted European prices (e.g. AU $50k) I think the twins would have flopped here. There would still be a few buyers, but it would never have sold in the relatively high per capita volumes it has.

Price matters, and for whatever reasons (regulations, fees, taxes, exchange rates, trade agreements etc) the twins were just very, very expensive cars in Europe compared to Australia or North America.

Whilst it is kind of sad for the Europeans, they are somewhat compensated by paying relatively less for European sportscars and coupes, as well as the widest variety of hot hatches.