CSG Spec Tein Flex A Owners Thread

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by Var

I only have the rear kit. The person I consulted at CSG recommended me a rear-only drop spindle kit when i was simply looking for spherical bushings and/or arms with spherical bushings
To get the front low enough, my front geometry is going to be absolutely whacked out



That is literally the opposite of what increasing/decreasing preload did to my ride height.



same as answer 1

I'm not going to respond to anything further. Hit me up on DM or let's just drop it

I'm not understanding what's going on here. I'm trying to help you, because clearly, something is very wrong with your car.

Sounds like you need either a roll center adjuster for the front, a wisefab front, or a long rear shock base mount to get you to the height you want.

I find it difficult to believe someone at CSG would recommend you something like the Wisefab, especially for the rear only, unless you had a specific requirement, such as wanting to go full spherical, in which case the Wisefab is absolutely more cost effective.

Looks like I should assume nothing here. Is your front also full spherical?

[Var]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

I'm not understanding what's going on here. I'm trying to help you, because clearly, something is very wrong with your car.

Yes, what's wrong with my car is that it has a rear only drop spindle kit on it

Sounds like you need either a roll center adjuster for the front, a wisefab front,

I've already figured that out for myself, now we're just going to figure out who's paying for it, as well as corner balancing and realigning

or a long rear shock base mount to get you to the height you want.

And how would my rear control arm angles look if I raised the rear an inch with taller base mounts? It would be the opposite problem that a lowered car has. It would be what the 4x4 guys have to solve for when they lift their cars. I'm not interested in figuring out all kinds of nonsense geometry issues with a lifted sports car

I find it difficult to believe someone at CSG would recommend you something like the Wisefab, especially for the rear only,

I can forward you the relevant email conversation if you don't believe me, or just ask D to forward it to you

unless you had a specific requirement, such as wanting to go full spherical, in which case the Wisefab is absolutely more cost effective.

As I've said more than once, I did want to get rid of all the rubber bushings in the rear. And the Wisefab kit absolutely did accomplish that but caused a bigger problem than it solved. I don't understand how the fact that the car would need a bunch more customization doesn't seem like relevant information when you're recommending a completely different approach that what I was looking for. Am I crazy?

Looks like I should assume nothing here. Is your front also full spherical?

No. Front is delrin with stock arms.

Honestly though, if you want to help me, you have my FB. You can DM me instead of muddying the waters of this thread, which is for discussing the CSG Flex A coilovers.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by Var

Yes, what's wrong with my car is that it has a rear only drop spindle kit on it




I've already figured that out for myself, now we're just going to figure out who's paying for it, as well as corner balancing and realigning



And how would my rear control arm angles look if I raised the rear an inch with taller base mounts? It would be the opposite problem that a lowered car has. It would be what the 4x4 guys have to solve for when they lift their cars. I'm not interested in figuring out all kinds of nonsense geometry issues with a lifted sports car



I can forward you the relevant email conversation if you don't believe me, or just ask D to forward it to you



As I've said more than once, I did want to get rid of all the rubber bushings in the rear. And the Wisefab kit absolutely did accomplish that but caused a bigger problem than it solved. I don't understand how the fact that the car would need a bunch more customization doesn't seem like relevant information when you're recommending a completely different approach that what I was looking for. Am I crazy?



No. Front is delrin with stock arms.

Honestly though, if you want to help me, you have my FB. You can DM me instead of muddying the waters of this thread, which is for discussing the CSG Flex A coilovers.

While your specific discussion pertains to the Wisefab, it also involves a CSG FLA, so I think it very much belongs in this thread, for anyone else who may follow that path.

Originally Posted by VAR

I can forward you the relevant email conversation if you don't believe me, or just ask D to forward it to you

So, I did just that, to try to figure out what happed. Does this ring a bell?

I want to complete the rear of the car first.

Timestamp Nov 22, 2019, 3:50 PM

It appears to me David's team provided you with exactly that: a complete rear end.

The issue that I can identify, is not that the Wisefab caused more problems, but rather that the rear doesn't match your front.

On a technical level, with the CSG FLA's 1.4" recommended drop (35mm), you *should* have roll center correction but most folks, myself included, choose to forego the roll center correction for budgetary reasons. With the wisefab, you can stay at the 35mm drop, or go lower without compromising RC. The 1.4" recommended drop for the CSG FLA is based around stock geometry and stock stroke range. With the Wisefab, you can now go lower without RC penalty.

The email conversation also shows David and/or his team recommending a SPL/Cusco setup, complete for both the front and rear, but that you elected ONLY to go with the rear system.

Additionally, you've pressed Delrin into the front arms, rather than going spherical. While Delrin is certainly less compliant than stock rubber, the issue is that now, the only non-spherical component in your suspension is your front lower control arm inner bushings. That delrin is going to be seeing a lot of deflection which causes permanent deformation. This is not as complete of a setup as your rear. Remember, you messaged me on my personal account, and I specifically told you that mixed bushings will have unpredictable results, due to variable deflection which can result in asymmetrical articulation and possible binding.

It sounds to me like it's now time to complete the front to match the rear, and you're going to have one hell of a car!

If you wanted to go the cheapest one-shot fix, go with the SPL FLCA, and use the provided spacers to also effectively turn the stock front knuckle into a drop knuckle, drop your car, and enjoy the true 1:1 articulation of both your front and rear suspension. The SPL FLCA will have anti-dive adjustment, as well as roll center adjustment and spherical inners, allowing you to have both a complete front and rear. I love the Wisefab rear, but don't recommend the front due to the mandatory low wheel offset, eliminating the ability to run wider tires without wider fenders. Drop the front and rear both back down to recommended or even lower, to take full advantage of the SPL FLCA and Wisefab rear.

[Var]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

While your specific discussion pertains to the Wisefab, it also involves a CSG FLA, so I think it very much belongs in this thread, for anyone else who may follow that path.



So, I did just that, to try to figure out what happed. Does this ring a bell?



Timestamp Nov 22, 2019, 3:50 PM

It appears to me David's team provided you with exactly that: a complete rear end.

The issue that I can identify, is not that the Wisefab caused more problems, but rather that the rear doesn't match your front.

On a technical level, with the CSG FLA's 1.4" recommended drop (35mm), you *should* have roll center correction but most folks, myself included, choose to forego the roll center correction for budgetary reasons. With the wisefab, you can stay at the 35mm drop, or go lower without compromising RC. The 1.4" recommended drop for the CSG FLA is based around stock geometry and stock stroke range. With the Wisefab, you can now go lower without RC penalty.

The email conversation also shows David and/or his team recommending a SPL/Cusco setup, complete for both the front and rear, but that you elected ONLY to go with the rear system.

Additionally, you've pressed Delrin into the front arms, rather than going spherical. While Delrin is certainly less compliant than stock rubber, the issue is that now, the only non-spherical component in your suspension is your front lower control arm inner bushings. That delrin is going to be seeing a lot of deflection which causes permanent deformation. This is not as complete of a setup as your rear. Remember, you messaged me on my personal account, and I specifically told you that mixed bushings will have unpredictable results, due to variable deflection which will result in asymmetrical deflection.

It sounds to me like it's now time to complete the front to match the rear, and you're going to have one hell of a car!

If you wanted to go the cheapest one-shot fix, go with the SPL FLCA, and use the provided spacers to also effectively turn the stock front knuckle into a drop knuckle, drop your car, and enjoy the true 1:1 articulation of both your front and rear suspension. The SPL FLCA will have anti-dive adjustment, as well as roll center adjustment and spherical inners, allowing you to have both a complete front and rear. I love the Wisefab rear, but don't recommend the front due to the mandatory low wheel offset, eliminating the ability to run wider tires without wider fenders. Drop the front and rear both back down to recommended or even lower, to take full advantage of the SPL FLCA and Wisefab rear.

I appreciate the out of context comments, and I will make sure to tell David that this is the best solution. I was willing to settle for a cheaper one

[timurrrr]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Preloading the spring effectively lowers the car, and extreme preload will slam the car.

When increasing the preload (without touching the lower mount / changing the damper length), the car surely gets higher, not lower.

Having minimal preload and setting up the desired ride height by changing the damper length contradicts the settings / dimensions recommended in the manual that comes with CSG FLAs.
And it is a good way to run into HBS all the time when driving on a highway — see the discussion we had earlier on this thread.

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Why not run the car lower with recommended CSG FLA settings, on the default Wisefab drop? The geometry is already compensated for, and will make the car handle like butter. The may be super low, but aerodynamically, that's better anyways!

Isn't the car going to be way too low (2" + 1.4" lower than stock) and have essentially no compression travel available?

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

... a long rear shock base mount ...

Are these available for purchase anywhere? Curious just in case I decide to get a RC kit myself.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by timurrrr

When increasing the preload (without touching the lower mount / changing the damper length), the car surely gets higher, not lower.

Having minimal preload and setting up the desired ride height by changing the damper length contradicts the settings / dimensions recommended in the manual that comes with CSG FLAs.
And it is a good way to run into HBS all the time when driving on a highway — see the discussion we had earlier on this thread.



Isn't the car going to be way too low (2" + 1.4" lower than stock) and have essentially no compression travel available?



Are these available for purchase anywhere? Curious just in case I decide to get a RC kit myself.

Once you preload enough to where the car's load is exceeded by the preload, yes, it will raise the car! Generally speaking though, that's likely too much preload, and will cost droop travel.


With the Wisefab kit, damper stroke is not affected by the natural drop, so compression travel is not affected. You would actually be able to increase some compression travel without losing droop, to delay HBS engagement if preferred.

[timurrrr]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Once you preload enough to where the car's load is exceeded by the preload, yes, it will raise the car! Generally speaking though, that's likely too much preload, and will cost droop travel.

Again, this is the exact opposite.
As you probably know, many coilovers only have the top collar / preload adjustments, and surely you can change the ride height with them.

When the preload is less than the car's load at ride height, more preload will raise the ride height. When considering the static ride height, any change in the position of the top collar (which controls preload) offsets where the bottom of the spring seats relative to the suspension, which certainly affects the ride height (as the compressed length of the spring is determined primarily by the weight at this point, and the top of the spring is fixed relative to the car body).

When there's more preload than load at ride height, adding even more preload will not affect the ride height anymore.
Hopefully this fact is not applicable to anyone — I can imagine how much resistance there will be on the top collar if you try to do that

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

With the Wisefab kit, damper stroke is not affected by the natural drop, so compression travel is not affected. You would actually be able to increase some compression travel without losing droop, to delay HBS engagement if preferred.

Are you saying the wheel well has enough space to accommodate the wheel if it goes 2" deeper under compression than with the recommended CSG FLA settings? At least in the front, with such amount of extra drop you'll have a ton of problems.

[churchx]

timurrrr: it will change only after preload adjustment will pass spring compression under car's load (and which is certainly way too much). please, watch this video.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by timurrrr

Again, this is the exact opposite.
As you probably know, many coilovers only have the top collar / preload adjustments, and surely you can change the ride height with them.

When the preload is less than the car's load at ride height, more preload will raise the ride height. When considering the static ride height, any change in the position of the top collar (which controls preload) offsets where the bottom of the spring seats relative to the suspension, which certainly affects the ride height (as the compressed length of the spring is determined primarily by the weight at this point, and the top of the spring is fixed relative to the car body).

When there's more preload than load at ride height, adding even more preload will not affect the ride height anymore.
Hopefully this fact is not applicable to anyone — I can imagine how much resistance there will be on the top collar if you try to do that



Are you saying the wheel well has enough space to accommodate the wheel if it goes 2" deeper under compression than with the recommended CSG FLA settings? At least in the front, with such amount of extra drop you'll have a ton of problems.

Depending on the wheel, yes. 17" is mandatory for Wisefab. 16" will clear the stock knuckle, but most of the world has the twins on 17" from the factory.

[timurrrr]

Originally Posted by churchx

please, watch this video.

I certainly have watched that video before, and you can even see me linking to that video in one of the earlier posts.

Originally Posted by churchx

timurrrr: it will change only after preload adjustment will pass spring compression under car's load (and which is certainly way too much).

I think you've misunderstood what the video is saying. If you believe that video says that anywhere, please provide a timestamp in the video where they say that so we can discuss it without me rewatching the whole thing.

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Depending on the wheel, yes. 17" is mandatory for Wisefab. 16" will clear the stock knuckle, but most of the world has the twins on 17" from the factory.

How about tire vs rest of the car? Fender? Fender liner? Bodywork inside the wheel well? Let's say we're talking about 245/40R17 SX2 and –2º...-2.5º of camber.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by timurrrr

How about tire vs rest of the car? Fender? Fender liner? Bodywork inside the wheel well? Let's say we're talking about 245/40R17 SX2 and –2º...-2.5º of camber.

Rear? Zero issue.

Front? HBS prevents bottoming out.

Did you notice at Laguna, that almost every car without HBS bottoms out coming out of the corkscrew, but you didnt?

[timurrrr]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Rear? Zero issue.

Gotcha, nice!

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Front? HBS prevents bottoming out.

Did you notice at Laguna, that almost every car without HBS bottoms out coming out of the corkscrew, but you didnt?

Well, HBS only works as good as the damper travel range is set up. Assuming the Wisefab front kit also has a drop knuckle, one would need to compensate for that drop with the lower bracket in order for the HBS to prevent digging the tire inches into the fender liner.

I certainly do bottom out the HBSes regularly, just by driving on a highway. As far as I understand how HBSs work, the difference from regular bump stop is just that when a HBS bottoms out it doesn't bounce back (it absorbs the energy through viscosity and converts into heat) as a rubber bump stop (which releases the potential energy back to the car body). See

.

Basically it's like dropping a sandbag on a hard floor vs basketball. It's not some magic pill to prevent a damper from bottoming out though.
Please correct me if I'm misunderstanding how HBS works, preferably with references to TEIN public technical info.

[Var]

Originally Posted by timurrrr

Are these available for purchase anywhere? Curious just in case I decide to get a RC kit myself.

Have you thought about what your rear control arm angles will look like if you did that?

[timurrrr]

Originally Posted by Var

Have you thought about what your rear control arm angles will look like if you did that?

Isn't that the whole point of RC kits? To have near-stock control arm angles while still reducing the ride height.

If you have a damper length designed for lowering with stock arms and then use it with an RC kit, you get double the lowering. You need to actually make the damper longer to work with an RC kit to get the optimal control arm angles.