ACE 150 vs 250 vs 350 (show me the dynos)

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by 86TOYO2k17

@Irace86.2.0
Do you have measurements on those headers 2-1 lengths?
Visually it seems the Jdl 2-1 secondary runners are closest to the 350 maybe 250, but 150 seems substantially shorter though.
And the longer 4-2 runners has a big impact as well.

Yeah, you are probably right. I am just eyeballing it. I'll edit. Some measurements would be a good add to this.

Edit: It looks like the JDL has its primaries longer than its secondaries. The primaries are shorter than Ace's primaries. The 150 seems to have shorter secondaries than the JDL's secondaries. The 250 seems to have about the same length. The 350 seems to have longer secondaries than the secondaries on the JDL header, and I say that because the primary and secondary lengths seems to be about the same on the Ace 350, which implies that the secondary runners must be longer than the secondaries on the JDL header because the primaries are longer than the primaries on the JDL header.

[86TOYO2k17]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

Yeah, you are probably right. I am just eyeballing it. I'll edit. Some measurements would be a good add to this.

Edit: It looks like the JDL has its primaries longer than its secondaries. The primaries are shorter than Ace's primaries. The 150 seems to have shorter secondaries than the JDL's secondaries. The 250 seems to have about the same length. The 350 seems to be longer than the secondaries on the JDL header, and I say that because the primary and secondary lengths seems to be about the same on the Ace 350, which implies that the secondary runners must be longer than the secondaries on the JDL header because the primaries are longer than the primaries on the JDL header.

Yeah, it’s easier to visualize with them all on the same page like your earier post. Initially I thought it was closest to 350, but now it does look close to the 250, maybe its a “300”

If we can’t get confirmed measurements It would be nice. Someone could try to extrapolate them by taking known measurements of other sections of the header like pipe width and using that to get a rough measurement.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by 86TOYO2k17

Yeah, it’s easier to visualize with them all on the same page like your earier post. Initially I thought it was closest to 350, but now it does look close to the 250, maybe its a “300”

If we can’t get confirmed measurements It would be nice. Someone could try to extrapolate them by taking known measurements of other sections of the header like pipe width and using that to get a rough measurement.

I'm sure a shop like CSG has all headers in stock and could just measure for us.

Dynos would be nice too. I feel like CSG, Ace, or DT would have the dynos. The old threads seem to have broken links for what might have been dynos during their original development like when they still had the Type B units.

[Doozer]

I used to know lengths but have forgotten the exact figures.

Here's a pic of 150, 250 and 350 side-by-side for reference.

The closer the merge to the engine = higher HP
The closer the merge to the rear bumper = more torque

Harrop used to use the old CS400 (before the RHD350) as I guess it complemented their roots charger. The Harrop time attack car switched to the Anaconda 48 (4-1) at one point a few years ago but I have no idea if they still use it.

Track cars are usually always at high rpm so the 4-1 typically suits the cars better.

Somewhere there is a dyno chart for all headers which is where the numbers in the previous post came from. I just can't find the charts anymore

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by Doozer

The closer the merge to the engine = higher HP
The closer the merge to the rear bumper = more torque

More torque leads to higher horsepower. I think you mean more torque down low versus more torque up high or something.

The primary merger or the secondary merger or both? The Ace has the longest primary runners and the longest distance from the engine to the single pipe merger over any headers, yet the JDL 4-2-1 has longer secondaries than at least the Ace 150 and maybe the Ace 250.

Still have yet to see a JDL 4-2-1 run next to an Ace 350, except for these, and it looks like the Ace 350 has a little more torque under 3500 rpms, but it is so close it is hard to tell. If the JDL and Ace 350 are so close on the dyno then are the differences in design negligible? It seems like the numbers from Ace on their different overpipes, aka, secondary runner lengths, are small enough that talking about the peak number differences seem silly. It seems like they would just make the 350 unless there is a significant difference in area under the curve, which is why I wanted to see a dyno with them all side-by-side.

[RayRay88]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

More torque leads to higher horsepower. I think you mean more torque down low versus more torque up high or something.

The primary merger or the secondary merger or both? The Ace has the longest primary runners and the longest distance from the engine to the single pipe merger over any headers, yet the JDL 4-2-1 has longer secondaries than at least the Ace 150 and maybe the Ace 250.

Still have yet to see a JDL 4-2-1 run next to an Ace 350, except for these, and it looks like the Ace 350 has a little more torque under 3500 rpms, but it is so close it is hard to tell. If the JDL and Ace 350 are so close on the dyno then are the differences in design negligible? It seems like the numbers from Ace on their different overpipes, aka, secondary runner lengths, are small enough that talking about the peak number differences seem silly. It seems like they would just make the 350 unless there is a significant difference in area under the curve, which is why I wanted to see a dyno with them all side-by-side.

These two are so neck and neck, I wouldn't over think it. Buy whatever makes the wallet happier and/or whatever you tuner has more experience with.

Anyone actually nitpicking between an A350/JDL 4-2-1 is either a bench racer, selling them or trying to convince themselves of their purchase.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by RayRay88

These two are so neck and neck, I wouldn't over think it. Buy whatever makes the wallet happier and/or whatever you tuner has more experience with.

Anyone actually nitpicking between an A350/JDL 4-2-1 is either a bench racer, selling them or trying to convince themselves of their purchase.

I’m more interested in the topic of this thread. The JDL comparison was just to illustrate that different designs seem to give similar results, yet the differences between the different length secondary runners must yield significant enough results or Ace would just make the one version for simplicity.

[RayRay88]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

I’m more interested in the topic of this thread. The JDL comparison was just to illustrate that different designs seem to give similar results, yet the differences between the different length secondary runners must yield significant enough results or Ace would just make the one version for simplicity.

No doubt runner lengths play an important part in estimating a headers performance, but there's also convergence angles, firing order, scavenging and reversion that all play into this level of header design. With out knowing the specifics it's not really going to be an apple to apples comparison of different headers.

It's interesting that they even sell the 150/250 anymore. I mean it's clearly a very niche market offering, but the fact that it's mainly an overpipe attachment, the investment required to design and offer those options must have been relatively cheap.

I've heard of a few Japanese club racers that have used the 150 before but no concrete feedback or dynos.

[86TOYO2k17]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

More torque leads to higher horsepower. I think you mean more torque down low versus more torque up high or something.

The primary merger or the secondary merger or both? The Ace has the longest primary runners and the longest distance from the engine to the single pipe merger over any headers, yet the JDL 4-2-1 has longer secondaries than at least the Ace 150 and maybe the Ace 250.

Still have yet to see a JDL 4-2-1 run next to an Ace 350, except for these, and it looks like the Ace 350 has a little more torque under 3500 rpms, but it is so close it is hard to tell. If the JDL and Ace 350 are so close on the dyno then are the differences in design negligible? It seems like the numbers from Ace on their different overpipes, aka, secondary runner lengths, are small enough that talking about the peak number differences seem silly. It seems like they would just make the 350 unless there is a significant difference in area under the curve, which is why I wanted to see a dyno with them all side-by-side.

That may be the closest ace 350 vs JDl 4-2-1 well get. JDL does have a bit more E%, also do you know year, mileage, normal driving conditions of either? Also looks like baseline is a generic one from their dyno and not the actual baseline of either car. So still a lot of variables to throw off being 1-1.

Have you found a 150 dyno to at least see powerband curve?

The one 250 I’ve seen and i bet a tuner with more time/experience with the header would extract more especially top end.
But Stock looks to have about a 1200rpm dip with a 15% peak torque drop, the 250 OP has a 600rpm dip with a 10% peak drop (which is still close to the peak torque of stock)

Based on that, the posts from ace themselves, and logically thinking about what you would expect from secondary runner lengths, you would think 250/150 would have almost an opposite effect of BPB shifting powerband up a little maximizing top end while sacrificing in the torque dip area a little.

Also it looks like the 350 250 150 is the MM length of the 2-1 on the OP, i don’t think it includes the length of the 2 pipe on the header, based on comparing to the 150 OP it looks like the 2 pipe on header is about 100mm, so the 2-1 secondary total length should be 450mm, 350mm, 250mm.

CSG website also mentions
“ By utilizing the 350 collector, this 2-piece header is a long tube equal length header that maximizes power throughout the rev range.”
“ The 250 collector is aimed towards forced induction applications maximizing runner length while keeping sufficient clearance”
“ The 150 collector is aimed towards maximizing clearance while keeping the Type-A 150 Merged Header affordable. The 150 collector is robotic welded to optimize production time”

Based on everything mentioned by ace and everything else I’ve always concluded that
350 has most overall total gain across entire powerband but mostly focused on mid range (in comparison to the 250/150)
250 has most overall gain in the 5k-redline range, but less total overall gain vs 350 across the entire powerband, but still more than 150.
150 has the highest peak WHP gain but has the smallest window of being the best with the lowest overall gain across the entire powerband curve. (Would pair well with a built head to rev to 8k rpm)

Most FI will eliminate and/or make the torque dip a non issue so beefing up 5k+rpm is what i would be after. If below 5k rpm either downshift or give 5% more throttle to make up any difference a better low end header/setup would give.

[Irace86.2.0]

I think those were both done by Zach via CSG at TheRacer'sLine, so the closest comparison.

I only saw a few 250s (no 150s), and they were on Euro/RHD models. Here is an example:

https://www.gt86.org.uk/forums/forum...ey-motorsport/

(Purple) ACE HEADER with 250 Merge collector/2nd cat de-cat pipe and Cobra Resonated system
(Green) Stock


(Purple) same as above
(Yellow) HKS HEADERS with the same set up after headers

[86TOYO2k17]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

I think those were both done by Zach via CSG at TheRacer'sLine, so the closest comparison.

I only saw a few 250s (no 150s), and they were on Euro/RHD models. Here is an example:

https://www.gt86.org.uk/forums/forum...ey-motorsport/

(Purple) ACE HEADER with 250 Merge collector/2nd cat de-cat pipe and Cobra Resonated system
(Green) Stock


(Purple) same as above
(Yellow) HKS HEADERS with the same set up after headers

just curious if the car with the ace is older, or has more mileage or more tracking mileage and would have a lower base dyno from "old age", or maybe the jdl is older. also 48% E to 55% E seems small but its actually about 2-3 more octane rating. its like going from 91 octane to 93 octane which on NA is roughly 5whp., maybe a diminishing return at a certain octane rating when NA, but still. good comparison for powerband curve comparison though, hard to really say what one is making more power, or has the greatest benefit without more information.

That's the only 250 i have been able to find, do you know of any others?
whats interesting on both the ace / hks header dynoes is the top end drop off is not what would be expected. Usually only see that on autos, i wonder if that is an auto, that thread didn't seem to indicate?

[Irace86.2.0]

So I bought a used Ace header, and I got a used Ace 150 overpipe, so I'll add some measurements for reference. I will eventually do a dyno run and some future group dyno day, but there won't be a before and after unfortunately.

[Irace86.2.0]

I have some measurements to share. These are rough measurements using a paper tape measure and eye-balling it.

Primary runner lengths from the flanges to the weld after the merger:

26'', 30'', 30.5'' and 31''

Secondary runner length from the start of the weld to the flange then to the weld after the final merger (includes thickness of flanges, naturally):

10-11''

Ratio of Primary to secondary runner length on the Ace150:

3:1

Other measurements taken...

Merger (Y) length from primary to secondary tubes:

5''

Merger (Y) length from secondary to tertiary tube/overpipe:

5-5.5''

Here are some pics for reference. The tape measure doesn't start at the begging; it is there just for size context:

[86TOYO2k17]

For the primary did you measure from engine side flange to the 2nd weld at the end of the 4-2 merge for the primary length?
And then for the secondary runner length measure the header starting at the end weld of the 4-2 merge to flange, and then on the OP from the flange to the 2nd weld at the end of the 2-1 merge. The merge portion (beginning weld to end weld) i would assume would be considered a continuation of the pipe length before it all the way up until it is fully/finally merged into the 2 pipe for the primary pipe or 1 pipe for the secondary merge.

Did you ever dyno your setup as is to get a rough comparison of the after?

Or i think a better test do from 4000-7400RPM in the highest gear up to 5th gear as possible preferably at least (4th to extend the data pool), go in both directions to account for any incline/decline/wind and avg the two runs. Can use ecutek datalogger to get the times, record time starting at 4200 and ending at 7200rpm. If you can repeat this 2-3 times would be even better. Record the weather conditions as well. Then swap over headers and in as similar conditions as possible repeat the test and see if you have any substantial differences in data. numbers on a dyno are cool but real world application/improvements are even better. If one shows 10whp more or less on a dyno but then both are within 1/10th of a second on this test the whp difference is probably inaccurate and from "testing error"