2020 Toyota GR Supra Revealed!

[jflogerzi]

I just wish the 4 pot kept the diff and damping from the bigger brother. Seriously the look is growing on me for sure.

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[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by jflogerzi

I just wish the 4 pot kept the diff and damping from the bigger brother. Seriously the look is growing on me for sure.

Sent from my GM1915 using Tapatalk

Yeah, or that it was an optional package like it is in the Sport Pack that is offered in other countries.

The adaptive suspension, active diff and increased engine displacement makes the 3.0 the better value. I would have a hard time getting the 2.0 without those things.

[gymratter]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

Yeah, or that it was an optional package like it is in the Sport Pack that is offered in other countries.

The adaptive suspension, active diff and increased engine displacement makes the 3.0 the better value. I would have a hard time getting the 2.0 without those things.

i think the issue is that Toyota didn't originally planned for the 2.0 to sold in North America. the Toyota insider said they were hoping to sell 5-6k units a year, but fell short with just 2,884 for 2019.

so i believe the people at the top are wondering "how can we reach our sales goal, lets just throw out the stripped out 2.0 for a few grand less". in doing so they kind of back themselves into a corner by pricing the base 3.0 relatively low (compare to other places like EU).

why didn't Toyota met their goal? pre-corona i would say the mark ups didn't help. only retards would pay $70k+ for one of these things. no manual trans also means they lost a certain percentage of buyers. the upcoming C8 with the unicorn $59.9k price tag have some cross shoppers holding off. also the one year delay by BMW probably didn't help. i think the car would have done better if it was released in 2018 as a 2019 model year, as in similarly pricing and performance to the C7; Toyota would probably have a better chance at selling more Supras at the point in time.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by gymratter

i think the issue is that Toyota didn't originally planned for the 2.0 to sold in North America. the Toyota insider said they were hoping to sell 5-6k units a year, but fell short with just 2,884 for 2019.

so i believe the people at the top are wondering "how can we reach our sales goal, lets just throw out the stripped out 2.0 for a few grand less". in doing so they kind of back themselves into a corner by pricing the base 3.0 relatively low (compare to other places like EU).

why didn't Toyota met their goal? pre-corona i would say the mark ups didn't help. only retards would pay $70k+ for one of these things. no manual trans also means they lost a certain percentage of buyers. the upcoming C8 with the unicorn $59.9k price tag have some cross shoppers holding off. also the one year delay by BMW probably didn't help. i think the car would have done better if it was released in 2018 as a 2019 model year, as in similarly pricing and performance to the C7; Toyota would probably have a better chance at selling more Supras at the point in time.

I totally agree, plus there are die-hard Toyota fans that didn't want a BMW engine or BMW interior, so that ate into sales, and the style of the car is very hit or miss, so that ate into sales. If the 2.0 is priced around $35-37k then I think the Supra will sell well. At that price, I could see some Camaro, Mustang, 370z shoppers hopping to the Supra for the name and slightly more luxury fit and finish. Higher, and the Supra might pick up a few people who want to own the name without the performance.

[BA9092]

Based on the auto news articles and videos I've been following since its debut, I speculate (not conclude) that it was the combination of scare tactics involving sales markups (especially when priced so close to the base C8), the controversial BMW influences and the lack of a manual transmission that contributed to the lower-than-anticipated sales figures.

We shall soon see what the differences on the track and road are between the A90 and A91 3.0 models. Slight improvements in driving dynamics not only from the extra 47hp and incentives rather than markups could help sales figures, especially in a post-COVID-19 economy.

The 2.0 is on another level and aimed towards a different demographic than the 3.0. Yes, I can see it being cross-shopped with the Mustang, Camaro and Challenger too - but the base models, not it's V8 brethren.

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

At that price, I could see some Camaro, Mustang, 370z shoppers hopping to the Supra for the name and slightly more luxury fit and finish..

I don't know a single Camaro/Mustang owner that will trade to a 2 seater. Most of them actually use their back seats.

[Yoshoobaroo]

Originally Posted by Dadhawk

I don't know a single Camaro/Mustang owner that will trade to a 2 seater. Most of them actually use their back seats.

That’s honestly about the only thing keeping me out of a 987 Cayman.

[spike021]

Originally Posted by gymratter

why didn't Toyota met their goal? pre-corona i would say the mark ups didn't help. only retards would pay $70k+ for one of these things.

Agreed.

When they first showed up at a nearby dealer, I kept going back because coworkers wanted to check it out, and then friends wanted to check it out. I kept running into the same salesman and I believe they were trying to sell it for like 90k or something obscene, and the guy kept pushing how "it's a limited release with the special mirrors and X, Y, Z". I think one of my friends kept checking that dealer's inventory for several months and the same Supra just never sold.

Oh and you couldn't test drive without clear intent/downpayment to buy it.

Now, contrast that with Japan;

I visited a Toyota/GR Garage in Tokyo earlier this year. I was just checking out a Supra they had parked outside (it was the newer 2.0 I later found out). Despite a language barrier the guy let me sit inside right away without me even asking, and he sprinted off to the office to grab the key. And then handed me the key and nodded. So I asked if I could just rev it a bit, he said that was okay. And then once I did that he waited, clearly expecting me to drive off for a test drive, no questions asked. But I stupidly didn't have my international driver's permit that day and I didn't want to cause legal issues by driving off without one.

Sure you could say it's simply a cultural thing. But I'd be much more inclined to buy a car if the salesman was jovial, friendly, and had what some people call "a bias for action" (just doing what you can to make _it_ happen).

I live in "Silicon Valley" with plenty of BMW's, Porsches, twins, etc. And yet I've only ever seen one A90 since it came out, and it was likely a dealer car being driven around to get attention.

I guarantee it's because of the shit behavior of Toyota USA and/or the dealers themselves.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by Dadhawk

I don't know a single Camaro/Mustang owner that will trade to a 2 seater. Most of them actually use their back seats.

Ford Mustang production numbers have ranged from 75,000-125,000/year over the last five years. Camaro production numbers have ranged from 45,000-75,000/year over the last five years.

There were 2,800 Supras sold last year. You don't think there are a few thousand Mustang and Camaro buyers from the 150,000+ buyers who would cross shop a Supra, so Toyota could meet its sales goal of 5-6k/year?

[BA9092]

I'm sure sales will pick up. Especially with the new A91 3.0 and the introduction of the 2.0 as well. But, it's also not for everyone - the styling is a bit controversial, the lack of a manual, the ties with BMW and the whole "but it's not a true Supra" that came along with the partnership.

Last year, there was only one model to choose from.

Besides, the Camaro and Mustang have had a huge following since the 60s with no break in the model cycle, as far as I know off the bat. The Supra was dead from 1998 (at least in the US) until last year.

Also, the Mustang and Camaro have various engines, available in both hardtop and convertible form and offer the choice of a manual or automatic transmission in various models.

There are a lot more "flavors" to choose from there.

[gymratter]

too many people to quote, but agree with a lot of the above.

Toyota dropped the ball big time by not offering a manual. i bet they could have taken a few shares from the Vette with a MT version. there are a number of guys over on the Vette forum that are still throwing a fit over the lost of the front engine and MT. a classic example of Toyota not listening to buyers and forcing people to buy only what they are offering.

someone over on the MK5 forum came up with a good idea about the mark ups. ToyotaUSA could have allocated more units to dealers that were selling at MSRP / moving more units. there are still some LE sitting on dealer lots for $78k and $77k.

https://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-...ckType=listing

https://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-...ckType=listing

idk if many Camaro/Mustang owner will jump ship. just based on pricing alone the Camaro/Mustang 2.0 starts around $26k. MK5 insider is hinted at a $42k starting price tag for the 2.0 Supra. if true that's a $16k price gap.

styling wise, i like it overall. however, as many people have pointed out the fake vents are lame. interior is boring as hell. the mirrors are standard BMW units. nothing special. hell even the ones on the Camry look more sporty.

like with the MK4, timing isn't kind to the Supra. back to the C8. most Vettes sold are no where near the "$59.9k" base MSRP. i believe the average is like $75k. but the advised price for a C8 did its job and put a dent on Supra sales regardless.

lastly the 2.0 Supra is pretty controversial on the net. i think should it played it different for the US market.

1. call the damn thing a Celica and give it a different front and rear treatment. Firebird vs Trans AM

OR

2. keep the B58C as the base model. but take out more of the goodies (power/heated seats, leather, smaller wheels, etc)

[gymratter]

https://carbuzz.com/news/toyota-is-d...20-supra-stock

The price of the 2020 Toyota Supra has been slashed by thousands. But can you benefit?

High demand for the long-awaited 2020 Toyota GR Supra resulted in some outrageous dealer markups. But now that the reborn Japanese sports car has been on sale for over a year, discounts are becoming more common.

Last month, Toyota slashed the price of the 2020 Supra by $2,000 as part of a dealer cash incentive. And now a new discount is on the table, although it only applies to Toyota dealership employees. According to a bulletin sent to dealers in Southern California obtained by Cars Direct, Toyota is offering dealer employees a $5,000 discount off the Supra throughout May.

That brings the starting price of the GR Supra down to $44 990. Unlike a dealer cash incentive given to customers, the offer is classed as purchase assistance for dealer associates. No other Toyota model is available with such a large employee discount. It's also worth more than twice other Supra incentives that are currently available to customers.

There are a few reasons why Toyota could be offering such a hefty Supra discount to dealer employees. Last year, Toyota only sold 2,884 Supras, making it the automaker's lowest-volume passenger car after the Toyota Mirai, which isn't sold outside California. Toyota will also be keen to sell the remaining stock of the 2020 model, as the Supra is getting an update later this year for the 2021 model year.

[BA9092]

Wow! Those $77K and $78K LEs! That's insane!

I realize dealers are allowed to set their own prices, but that's robbery. Reminds me of that Martin Shkreli "Pharma Bro" who jacked up the price of that drug 5000%...

The Supra's design has grown on me during the past year or so. I don't care that the vents are fake. There have been so many cars over the years with scoops and spoilers that did absolutely nothing except as a visual characteristic - nobody complained this much before. I just wished Toyota would've gone as bold with the interior as they did with the exterior - something along the lines of the Alpine A110.

I get the 2.0 version is the "ideal" balance with possibly better handling thanks to the less weight. But it does nothing for me. Everyone complains about the 3.0 not having a manual, but that's a much bigger mistake when it comes to the 2.0! I've got my BRZ set up to my liking now - FI and manual - for way less than the anticipated $40K+ 2.0 Supra.

I agree, the 2.0 should be incorporated into the industry, but they should've made it more visually distinguishable to the 3.0 - maybe delete all the black trim around the front lip, side skirts and rear diffuser? Also, it should've been called something else - Celica?

Lastly, personal opinion - a true Supra is an inline-6 turbo. Adding a 4-pot in a Supra seems way more contradictory to its heritage than having a partnership with BMW.

If I were to upgrade from my FI manual BRZ, it would definitely be the 3.0.

[gymratter]

for those that missed it. interview done by @ichitaka05

https://www.supramkv.com/threads/sup...gr-supra.3445/

Me: Why did you make a 3.0 ver and a 2.0 ver of Supra?

TT: When you think of the Supra, you automatically think of it having an incline 6 engine. To be honest, I wasn’t all that interested in making an incline 4 Supra. However, if we only had the incline 6, we would have a big gap between the Supra and the 86. From the beginning, we’ve wanted to make a cheaper option to make the Supra more affordable. We tested this idea and made a prototype inline 4 version and it happened to turn out very well. Obviously, the characteristics between the inline 6 and the inline 4 were different, especially driving down a touge (canyon). Since the beginning of the production of the 86, we’ve gotten many request to create a force induction 86, the inline 6 Supra felt like the answer to that.

During the inline 4 development, it came together so well that we were debating to change the name. This new version of the Supra would be essentially superseding the Toyota Celica. Due to time restraints and R&D’s, we were unable to make all the changes we wanted to make. Overall the inline 4 is lighter than the inline 6 model. In this case, a >200 lbs weight difference demonstrates the significant characteristic changes cars can have when they differ in weight.

In my opinion, the inline 4 will be more tuner/modifier friendly. The inline 6 engine bay is extremely limited in space. We had to re-engineer components in the engine bay to make everything fit. For example, we had to split up the radiator in order to fit the engine where we wanted. Due to the limited space, I feel like aftermarket companies will have a hard time adding components. The inline 4 Supra, in my opinion, will be more fun at a touge instead of at the track.

The inline 6 version is for those owners who prefer to keep everything stock. Drawing from our experience with the 86, wealthier owners tend to want a more hardcore model. They are willing to pay the higher price tag for all the upgrades and amenities included without putting in all the work to modify it on their own.

Me: 2.0 have different suspension and differential than 3.0...

TT: The 2.0 versions suspension, engine and even transmission parts are different. However, the quality is identical with the 3.0. Obviously, both cars are set up differently, but we didn’t cheap out on 2.0. In that view, the 2.0 version is a pretty good deal.

Me: Why did the US 2.0 version come with only the bare minimal options? Compared to Japan, the US is getting SZ (lower grade) model with SZ-R (mid grade) engine? No AVS, eDif and so on.

TT: At the moment, they’re still in the process of figuring things out. I would want to see them actually take all the options off to keep it simple. If you don’t have AVS or eDif, it’s easier to modify it. Therefore, I told them to keep the cost down by omitting them. The final cost hasn’t officially been decided and even if its too cheap, dealerships will raise the price. We will just have to see where this goes.

Me: Do you see 86 owner getting into the Supra?

TT: In Japan, I’ve seen a few 86 owners trading their cars for the Supra. Most of them buy SZ-R (2.0) instead of RZ (3.0).

Me: I, myself am interested in 2.0 instead of 3.0. It’d be interesting to see who else is interested in the 2.0 version.

— went off topic for a bit —

Me: Back on topic lol 3.0 update has nearly a 50hp difference from first model. Many fans knew, soon or later, Toyota would bring a higher HP Supra... just not this fast. Why did you increase the HP this early?

TT: We stated that we would update annually, so it really doesn’t feel this is sudden. When a sports car doesn’t update annually, they get left in the dust from car enthusiasts. Last year when we release the Supra, we heard both the good and the bad. There were a lot of opinions flying around constantly. At the end of last year, it went quiet.

Me: That might have to do with the new Corvette & Mustang GT500 announcements.

TT: Yes, but now we have this update. They can discuss about it again.

I’m not asking everyone to say only positive things about the Supra. Everyone is entitles to their opinions. Being able to discuss both viewpoints with each other is part of owning sports car and it makes it fun. It also gives opportunities to the auto industries to supply car enthusiasts with their needs or wants within their limits.

Even with the 86, we tried to update annual. Some were major, some were minor, and some were unique.

I believe doing these things are important.

Me: That could be the explanation. With the 86, we saw reinforced bolts, fish fins, aluminum tape and those small updates. We were caught off guard with this kind of update. But in Supra, BAM! Here’s power upgrade!

TT: Hahaha! 86 and Supra is different category. With the 86, doing even small update will make owner happy. With Supra, we couldn’t only do those small things. We tried to mimic Porsche and how they do their updates.

We’ve wanted to go head-to-head with Porsche, but in reality, Porsche is ahead of the game. We’re trying to get on their level, but they’re too far in advancements. Porsche is always evolving. Not only adding into catalog, but they also look at the small details. With Toyota culture, it’s hard to do that.

We said that we’ll update annually. We’ve heard most people ask questions such as; “Are you sure you’re going to update?” “I’m pretty sure they won’t update after an year.” or “First few years they’ll do minor update and maybe do facelift in two or so years.” That’s not the case. The last update announcement clearly demonstrates that we are serious in updating annually.

We not only did an engine update, but upgrades to the suspension, eDif, steering and chassis rigidity. We won’t go into these in-depth updates. The biggest difference is the engine. With it only a 50HP bump, we didn’t really need to update other areas as much. If we wanted to compete with Porsche, we knew that we shouldn’t be satisfied with just an engine update. We needed to update everything and retune it from the beginning . If you compare ‘21 model to ‘20 at the track, you will feel the difference.

Me: How much did suspension and eDif actually chang?

TT: We had to match it with the updated engine. We also made it more track oriented. ‘20 model Supra was made for street and track. Even the most dedicated track drivers still drive on public roads. So main focus for this setup was touge and public roads. Compared to the current model Supra, previous model Supra ride is more comfortable. We heard owner saying “You didn’t need to make it this comfortable.” For the owners that believed that, there’s more potential at the track from the Supra. They aren’t wrong with their feedback. Therefore, the new Supra reduced rolls and ensured the performance difference at the track was noticeable. To reinforce the front, we had to put front braces.

If you just added front braces on ‘20 model Supra, it wouldn’t work as it should. When a driver would turn-in, it would understeer. During the exit, it would oversteer. You can’t just stiffen up the chassis. We needed to think of both front and rear balance. With this update, we readjusted all those things.

Me: We also want to know what to expect next from the Supra.

TT: Next? Hahaha! Already looking into next Supra? Next Supra, I’m entrusting Fukumoto (Keisuke Fukumoto). This is why he’s here with me all the time.

New Supra’s main focus was performance and we didn’t touch the exterior nor the interior. Just added extra color, but that’s pretty much it. Of course down the road, we do need to update those things.

There is a possibility that we will update the cars performance first then we will work on shape or design of the car. From there, go back to performance again. We want to do both at the same time, but if we change the design all the time, it makes the previous design old and we aren’t fans of that. We didn’t want to change the design too quickly. We wanted to make sure that if an aftermarket aero kit comes out, we give enough time in between to give owner options before changing the design again.

— goes off-topic again —

TT: Supra and 86 are in different categories, but also their time period are significantly different as well. 86 era, aero parts came out left and right, but with the Supra... these shops that make aero part are going to have a hard time making these parts. Modern day cars have many radars and sensors attached to the car, making is extremely difficult to modify cars. Messing with these systems can be detrimental to drivers safety. It won’t be as the 86 era to just replace it.

Me: I guess, gotta develop slowly or small areas, like TRD aero kit.

TT: Even TRD, they could only add a lip and not a full bumper replacement because of all the sensors.

Those sensor spots cannot be changed and it complicate things. This is the reason why we made the stock height lower. For 86, we followed Toyota guideline and kept the height pretty high and let the owner take care of the height themselves. For the Supra, we can’t really do that. We drop it the maximum amount we were allowed to. If you look at other sports car, the Supra’s height should be equal or lower. I’m not sure how it passed inside Toyota. Haha

Me: History of Supra has been Grand Touring car since Celica. When did you decided to make Supra into two seater compact sports car?

TT: From the start. At the beginning, I was not ordered to make new Supra. Was told to make sports car that would be superior to the 86. Of course, everyone was expecting me to make a Supra. Both fans and Toyota employees, even President Akio. The Supra name isn’t easy to put it on any car. I couldn’t just label this new concept “Supra” just because it had an inline 6 engine. The cars performance and design had to back it up as well. The title “Supra” was approve literally one year before the release date. Over and over, they wouldn’t give us the green light until one year before the release date. The design and performance of this new concept car earned the right to inherit the name “Supra”.

Me: Design definitely follow Supra design.

TT: Yes, but even then I heard “Taillights doesn’t follow Supra design” and other complains on designs.

Me: Ah~ well, that’s mostly JZA80 fan boys ranting off. I, myself know about Supra since Celica XX, so it doesn’t matter if the taillights have circle lights or not.

— goes off-topic again lol —

Me: Have you ever thought about make it bigger like Soarer?

TT: If we did, we would’ve definitely made the car easier. If you try to make the car smaller and smaller, the harder and harder it becomes. It also increases the cost. If we don’t make it smaller, we can just increase weight and that doesn’t bring out the sports car performance.

All the Porsche cars have been small. Of course year after year, they have become bigger, but overall, they’re still a very compact sports car. This is why their performance is top level. They keep it very compact and bring the performance up. It’s very simple yet very important in sports car.

To make a car compact is very hard to do. It doesn’t matter how big, number of parts doesn’t change. Making it compact and strong isn’t easy.

— goes off-topic (FnF) —

Me: Speaking of colors, fans are waiting for Toyota colors. Red isn’t really Toyota “Red” or white isn’t Toyota “White”. White, we want Super White for Supra.

TT: Hm... *tilts his head*

Me: Can you make limited production Super White Supra? Could be like limited to 500.

TT: Hahahahaha!

Interview went on for another half an hour, mostly 86 stuff lol ...& yes, I did talk about some of stuff owners like and doesn’t like about Supra and want to see improved.

Again big thank you to Tada-san for listening and answering questions.