FT86 Vs. 2020 Corvette C8 Stingray

[Summerwolf]

Lol.

Understeer is the C8's torque dip. People complain about it before driving the car.

No ones even put an alignment on one of these yet. Give it a bit of time before passing judgement on a car you're not going to buy.

[xdavidx]

Can someone please tell me what the absolute perfect car is?



First I thought it was an affordable, raw/pure, reliable, efficient, crazy good handling japanese car, but then I found out it didn't have enough power and a torque dip.


Then I thought it was a mid engine, v8, affordable supercar with t-tops that supports our local economy and rewards american innovation, but then I found out it understeers and well... What now?


Is miata still the answer? Cause.... I really have no desire for one, but if the internet says so.... I guess I'll get one.

[SUB-FT86]

Originally Posted by xdavidx

Can someone please tell me what the absolute perfect car is?



First I thought it was an affordable, raw/pure, reliable, efficient, crazy good handling japanese car, but then I found out it didn't have enough power and a torque dip.


Then I thought it was a mid engine, v8, affordable supercar with t-tops that supports our local economy and rewards american innovation, but then I found out it understeers and well... What now?


Is miata still the answer? Cause.... I really have no desire for one, but if the internet says so.... I guess I'll get one.

I think for me it's a turbo 86 and a Cayman. Right size(168-172 inches), right weight(2800-3100lbs) and good power(300-414hp) with the right dynamics. I would also throw in ND Mx5 but I would want a 50hp boost and some coils.

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by xdavidx

Can someone please tell me what the absolute perfect car is?.

OH that's easy...

It's whatever car I'm driving through the mountains on a windy road on a crisp Fall day a little faster than I should with a beautiful woman in the passenger seat....

Yep, perfect car.

[korhun]

No woman. No cry.
I'd prefer a nice exhaust note to the woman in this scenario.

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by korhun

No woman. No cry.
I'd prefer a nice exhaust note to the woman in this scenario.

Well, in my case, my passenger happens to be a bit of a motorhead and will want to drive the return route, so it's all good!

[korhun]

Originally Posted by Dadhawk

Well, in my case, my passenger happens to be a bit of a motorhead and will want to drive the return route, so it's all good!

You are very lucky. In my case, it would be the end of the world, if I even accidentally don't use the most convenient and shortest route to our very well planned destination.

[rennlistuser3]

Originally Posted by Summerwolf

Lol.

Understeer is the C8's torque dip. People complain about it before driving the car.

No ones even put an alignment on one of these yet. Give it a bit of time before passing judgement on a car you're not going to buy.

I knew of the torque dip of the FT86 before I bought it and thought it would be very bad but I can live with it. Now that I have the car for 2 years I know it is very bad but I can live with it.


I also know without a shadow of a doubt I'd really hate to have a sports car with the handling characteristics of the C8. I just need to read a few lines to know what the revierws are talking about and I know if the car is right for me.

It would be really nice if this understeer issue was solvable with an alignment but as discussed in detail in that thread I linked, it is unlikely that an alignment will solve the issue.

Maybe GM will pull a miracle and fix this chassis of the C8 before production or even maybe fix it even in a year or two. Believe me I'll be the happiest on here to know that. I haven't been this excited about a sports car since the Lotus Evora and my current FT86 that I'm driving. But for now from what I'm reading everywhere, this is unlikely to be the case and the way the C8 is right now is not for me.

I'm positive it will be a smash success for GM. I believe over 90% of its buyers will hit the gas pedal once every 3 months and be pushed to their seat with a huge smile than will drive back home to wash it again and call it a day.

[Summerwolf]

Originally Posted by rennlistuser3

I knew of the torque dip of the FT86 before I bought it and thought it would be very bad but I can live with it. Now that I have the car for 2 years I know it is very bad but I can live with it.


I also know without a shadow of a doubt I'd really hate to have a sports car with the handling characteristics of the C8. I just need to read a few lines to know what the revierws are talking about and I know if the car is right for me.

It would be really nice if this understeer issue was solvable with an alignment but as discussed in detail in that thread I linked, it is unlikely that an alignment will solve the issue.

Maybe GM will pull a miracle and fix this chassis of the C8 before production or even maybe fix it even in a year or two. Believe me I'll be the happiest on here to know that. I haven't been this excited about a sports car since the Lotus Evora and my current FT86 that I'm driving. But for now from what I'm reading everywhere, this is unlikely to be the case and the way the C8 is right now is not for me.

I'm positive it will be a smash success for GM. I believe over 90% of its buyers will hit the gas pedal once every 3 months and be pushed to their seat with a huge smile than will drive back home to wash it again and call it a day.

I really wish I could make up my mind on cars by a few articles from people online. Forget test driving it, or experience from a friend. I'm sure an alignment will help somewhat. It's funny that during Matt Farah's initial drive it was all positive. The look on that guys face driving this car is worth a lot compared to many automotive journalists IMO.

IDK, whenever I drove my Z06 it was a joyful experience no matter what type of driving (or detailing) i was doing. I'm sure the C8 will live up its expectations.

[RayRay88]

Originally Posted by rennlistuser3

I knew of the torque dip of the FT86 before I bought it and thought it would be very bad but I can live with it. Now that I have the car for 2 years I know it is very bad but I can live with it.


I also know without a shadow of a doubt I'd really hate to have a sports car with the handling characteristics of the C8. I just need to read a few lines to know what the revierws are talking about and I know if the car is right for me.

It would be really nice if this understeer issue was solvable with an alignment but as discussed in detail in that thread I linked, it is unlikely that an alignment will solve the issue.

Maybe GM will pull a miracle and fix this chassis of the C8 before production or even maybe fix it even in a year or two. Believe me I'll be the happiest on here to know that. I haven't been this excited about a sports car since the Lotus Evora and my current FT86 that I'm driving. But for now from what I'm reading everywhere, this is unlikely to be the case and the way the C8 is right now is not for me.

I'm positive it will be a smash success for GM. I believe over 90% of its buyers will hit the gas pedal once every 3 months and be pushed to their seat with a huge smile than will drive back home to wash it again and call it a day.

I honestly think you're blowing the whole understeering thing out of proportion. Most mid engined cars have a neutral/under bias, that's just physics of a car with a rear weight bias. Even the 720s (and subsequently the Senna) has been called out by most journalists for having a default understeer disposition.

What I think it comes down to is two things;
1. The Tires, The P4S's are good tires, but they're really not anything to be celebrated in terms of outright performance. Even the 911s comes with Pirelli PZero's.

The lower G numbers in the figure 8, compared to the C7 Z51, do not translate into slower times for the car, or even lower cornering speeds.

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a2...ette-c8-vs-c7/
"Through the 100-mph sweeper feeding the main straight, the C8 was about 3 mph faster. It hit 142 mph before braking into Turn 1 to the C7’s 140, and then braked with 1.16 g’s to the C7’s 1.00. It registered a maximum of 1.32 g’s in the banked Turn 8 hairpin versus the C7’s 1.30 g’s."

2. Front/Rear Stagger. The C8 has a 245/305 vs the C7 with 245/285. That's a considerable amount of rear width added, without adding anything to the front. I imagine that rear biased stagger will come down quite a bit with the higher performance models.

Overall swap the tires and mess with the alignment and I think any under steer you may "hate" will disappear in a flash. That is to say you even notice when you drive the car yourself. Much like the torque dip, yeah you heard about it, but, did you not drive the car before coming to your own conclusion?

Also most reviewers agree that this chassis is lacking in the engine department and will easily be ready for a more powerful engine, whereas the old C7 Z06+ variants were notoriously over powered and the chassis could not handle it.

[rennlistuser3]

Originally Posted by Summerwolf

I really wish I could make up my mind on cars by a few articles from people online. Forget test driving it, or experience from a friend. I'm sure an alignment will help somewhat. It's funny that during Matt Farah's initial drive it was all positive. The look on that guys face driving this car is worth a lot compared to many automotive journalists IMO.

IDK, whenever I drove my Z06 it was a joyful experience no matter what type of driving (or detailing) i was doing. I'm sure the C8 will live up its expectations.

For me, on that thread, they make it very clear that I would personally enjoy driving C7 Z06 (even the C7 stingray) but will not enjoy driving the C8. I know I don't enjoy understeer at the limit.

regarding reviews, information is information. It's even arguable that reading a review is better than driving the car itself because a lot often you will only be driving the car at say a dealer and you will not be doing power oversteer at the dealer. I know my FT86 is good at that (in snow ), and I experienced it AFTER it was all mine. But I relied on reviews (and heck I will admit even playstation GT) to learn this. No dealer or even friend let me do that to their car.

Let's just hope the car was a faulty pre-production and there is a pleasant surprise waiting.

[rennlistuser3]

Originally Posted by RayRay88

I honestly think you're blowing the whole understeering thing out of proportion. Most mid engined cars have a neutral/under bias, that's just physics of a car with a rear weight bias. Even the 720s (and subsequently the Senna) has been called out by most journalists for having a default understeer disposition.

What I think it comes down to is two things;
1. The Tires, The P4S's are good tires, but they're really not anything to be celebrated in terms of outright performance. Even the 911s comes with Pirelli PZero's.

The lower G numbers in the figure 8, compared to the C7 Z51, do not translate into slower times for the car, or even lower cornering speeds.

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a2...ette-c8-vs-c7/
"Through the 100-mph sweeper feeding the main straight, the C8 was about 3 mph faster. It hit 142 mph before braking into Turn 1 to the C7’s 140, and then braked with 1.16 g’s to the C7’s 1.00. It registered a maximum of 1.32 g’s in the banked Turn 8 hairpin versus the C7’s 1.30 g’s."

2. Front/Rear Stagger. The C8 has a 245/305 vs the C7 with 245/285. That's a considerable amount of rear width added, without adding anything to the front. I imagine that rear biased stagger will come down quite a bit with the higher performance models.

Overall swap the tires and mess with the alignment and I think any under steer you may "hate" will disappear in a flash. That is to say you even notice when you drive the car yourself. Much like the torque dip, yeah you heard about it, but, did you not drive the car before coming to your own conclusion?

Also most reviewers agree that this chassis is lacking in the engine department and will easily be ready for a more powerful engine, whereas the old C7 Z06+ variants were notoriously over powered and the chassis could not handle it.

I'm again quoting parts from that thread that better explain my point of view on the C8 understeer:

-----------------

Understeer is an oft-misunderstood thing. Cars that don't understeer at all are uncontrollable — think of a shopping cart with omnidirectional casters at the rear. The fastest — and incidentally most rewarding — setup is that of very mild understeer to neutral. Basically, you want both ends of the car to reach their limit at the same time. If anything, maybe the front a hair before the rear.

This is mild understeer. And if the limits of the two axles are very close, you then have the ability to manage them using throttle, brake, or steering inputs. A mid-engie mild-understeerer can be made to go neutral with a small amount of trail-braking, for example.

The reason we (and C/D, and MT, and everyone else who's driven the car) complained about the understeer is for a few reasons. Firstly, it's not mild understeer: it's moderate and then some. This means, as a driver, the repertoire of tricks you have at your disposal to change the car's mid-corner attitude are very limited.
---------------------------------

Most of what you mention as been discussed on that thread. Some believe the understeer is not a problem at all or even cane solves and some others believe it is a big problem and it cannot be solved so easily as an alignment or tires. I'm on the latter group. Not because I want to hate on the C8 it's just my honest assessment.

The FT86 torque dip, I read endless reviews on it before the purchase and now I feel the reading feedback was pinpoint accurate for me. There are more subjective things like engine sound that do not translate well in reviews but otherwise reviews do give good feedback on what to expect.

[Summerwolf]

Originally Posted by rennlistuser3

Not because I want to hate on the C8 it's just my honest assessment.

The FT86 torque dip, I read endless reviews on it before the purchase and now I feel the reading feedback was pinpoint accurate for me. There are more subjective things like engine sound that do not translate well in reviews but otherwise reviews do give good feedback on what to expect.

What qualifications do you have to give an assessment? Are you an engineer or a professional driver? Have you driven this car or seen one in person? How often do you track your cars?

You know for a while there a lot of the twins had built in understeer, suspension differences and all....

[RayRay88]

Originally Posted by Summerwolf

What qualifications do you have to give an assessment? Are you an engineer or a professional driver? Have you driven this car or seen one in person? How often do you track your cars?

You know for a while there a lot of the twins had built in understeer, suspension differences and all....

Honestly, he's beating a dead horse like he's driven it. So far R&T, and Motor Trend are the only ones that have mentioned the dreaded understeer, yet both reviewed about it highly and called it the best Vette yet. I'll wait for more reviews, and understeer or not, it's still ultra competitive and able to put down some very respectable times compared to cars that are way above its price range. He clearly just needs an excuse not to buy it, and honestly, most people love the Corvette or just write it off, I didn't expect that mentality to change. He'd be much happier spending the extra coin and getting a 911 or Ferrari.....