Forget the NA vs Turbo debate!!!!

[NESW20]

maybe you should just hate the ion instead.

i've driven *numerous* electronic throttle vehicles, and if done right, it's extremely good. it cleans up the engine bay considerably, so there are actually less parts to fail than if you run a cable throttle.

[1GoZoom]

Originally Posted by Midship Runabout

^ no offense, but that's because its a saturn and they are pieces of shit electronically.

You DO realize its an Ecotec 2.4 LE5? Not the average Ion/Cobalt/Cavalier motor. Its a stroked out LNF Cobalt SS 2.0T motor. Damn torquey SOB when it wants to be, but the US forced the manufacturers to move so quickly to Fly-by-wire that nothing was tested like it should have been. Plus, my car is Canadian. Not sure why it ended up here when it was destined for .ca :/

But yea, aside from the horrible fly-by-wire issues, I LOVE that motor. Made 163whp/161tq stock, which wasn't bad for NA.

[1GoZoom]

Originally Posted by NESW20

maybe you should just hate the ion instead.

i've driven *numerous* electronic throttle vehicles, and if done right, it's extremely good. it cleans up the engine bay considerably, so there are actually less parts to fail than if you run a cable throttle.

I'm old school. I prefer the cable throttle. I want to be able to rev the engine while under the hood so I can see if everything is as it should be. Also makes for LESS things to go wrong. A lot of issues with the fly-by-wire is rainwater and salt (and the snow that accompanies it). You get in the car with wet boots and kick the pedal. You get water in the accelerator pedal position sensor (which is cheaply made) and you have to spend 120 bucks for a new pedal since they are welded onto the pedal 9/10 times. And since that is a part that was not subject to failure by rather "abuse" (GM's warranty used to say something akin to that), you have to pay for both the part AND the instillation. If a throttle cable snapped in the old cars, you'd buy a new piece from the parts store and run it through the firewall. 20 minutes later, you were back on the road. All these specialized parts for emissions bullshit drive me nuts. Extra cost, extra weight, little to no benefit. All to make some investor happy which helps keep a politician in office another day. /rant

EDIT: As for the salt, it gets into the cracks of the piece or on a stray wire and since salt is an electrolyte (divides into Na+ Cl- Ions) [Pun anyone], it can bridge connections and short circuits. Also stands true for the throttle position sensor and clutch pedal position sensor, as well as MAP/MAF/EGT/IAT/CSP/etc sensors. /Chemistry rant

[NESW20]

sounds like a poor design to me. the throttle pedal in my truck was 100% submerged in what might as well have been swamp water, and since then, my truck has done 120K miles without one single problem or hiccup.

as far as revving the engine, just have a friend do it from inside the car. instruct them what you want to do and that problem is solved.

you might want to do some more research before you insist that electronic throttles somehow add weight or cost. they eliminate the need for cruise control actuators and cables. they eliminate the need for idle air control valves. they eliminate the need for additional throttles to act as a power limiter for traction control systems (such as in the MKIV supras).

why do you think an electronic throttle is a specialized part for emissions? do they somehow let the air enter the engine differently than a mechanical throttle?

[Allch Chcar]

I have to agree that your problems could be the build quality. I don't know ETBs personally since all the cars I drive are too old but I know the better designed ETBs come from sportscar companies like Mazda or BMW. Mazda uses an ETB on certain rotaries, I almost think they all have ETB but I'm not completely sure. Anyway, it's supposed to be one of the most responsive engines out there thanks in part to the Electronic throttle body.

I believe ETBs can be reprogrammed . But I'm not speaking from experience here .

[Midship Runabout]

Originally Posted by 1GoZoom

You DO realize its an Ecotec 2.4 LE5? Not the average Ion/Cobalt/Cavalier motor. Its a stroked out LNF Cobalt SS 2.0T motor. Damn torquey SOB when it wants to be

Easy hot rod. I know what your motor is, re read what I posted. Saturn has shitty electronics.

[1GoZoom]

Hot rod. Yikes. You make me sound 50.

Sorry for spouting off. I've just been researching the advance of modern car technology such as Fly-by-wire for a couple years since the Ion first gave me trouble. Its not so much the build quality (which in a Saturn is definitely lacking, even compared to its Chevy Cobalt SS counterpart), but just a general lack of time to investigate the issue before adapting it into cars. The overseas manufacturers had regulations forcing this change a decade ago and implemented it slowly after much research (the Prius obviously being the exception). Mine was doing much of the same things as the Prius, except I'd just clutch and pop into neutral. The car would stop getting gas for some reason when put into neutral. It was weird. Evens till, after all the parts changes, it holds rpms when shifting like a poorly designed WOT box and keeps changing my fuel curves. One run I'll have plenty of torque, next run I have none. Its always the sensors. They have a variable voltage system (or whatever it would be called). I miss the days of a cable throttle. If it broke, you knew what was wrong. Now you have to take it to a stealership and let them test every sensor, the PCM, and possibly check wiring, which can run upwards of 500 bucks if out warranty. The disadvantages outweigh the benefits imo.

[NESW20]

rev hang is usually programmed into the electronic throttle on purpose. it's not a mistake. it's annoying for people like us who know how to drive a manual transmission, but for a lot of people out there, it helps them get from A to B.

there are ways to fix it if you are so inclined.

[aliphian]

Originally Posted by NESW20

rev hang is usually programmed into the electronic throttle on purpose. it's not a mistake. it's annoying for people like us who know how to drive a manual transmission, but for a lot of people out there, it helps them get from A to B.

there are ways to fix it if you are so inclined.

I remember that was a huge problem for the Genesis 2.0T guys early on. There was a tuning solution in a matter of months. I also heard that they complained enough that Hyundai decided to tone it down the following model year.

[Allch Chcar]

Originally Posted by NESW20

rev hang is usually programmed into the electronic throttle on purpose. it's not a mistake. it's annoying for people like us who know how to drive a manual transmission, but for a lot of people out there, it helps them get from A to B.

there are ways to fix it if you are so inclined.

I've heard that is mostly for emissions since going from heavy load to nothing generates some "unwanted" emissions.
Any truth to that?

[1GoZoom]

I was tuned and have driven several other Cobalt SS cars as well as multiple 2.4 motors in various cars. I come from the CobaltSS forums (as do a couple guys I know on here), so that's to be expected. I can honestly say I've never seen a car that hangs RPMs like mine does. It throws codes for parts I just replaced saying they are out of sync. I replaced the engine PCM, BCM, and OBD-II port its self all under the emissions warranty (with 1k miles to spare lol). The car is a nightmare when its in a bad mood, but when its happy, look out. If it had ran okay, I'd have never bought the Mazda or ever got into modding, so its sort of a blessing in disguise. Only reason I even got into the CobaltSS forum was to figure out why my car hated me so much.

[xantonin]

I've never had a problem with my DBW car, and I have the year when it was first made available on that model.

Given 9-10 years of research since then, I'm sure it could be even better.

[Ryephile]

There's nothing wrong with a properly calibrated DBW throttle setup. Diesel's have been doing it for virtually ever, since Diesel "throttles" with only fuel injection, not a throttle body.

FWIW, the DBW on '06+ Lotus Elise/Exige and Evora are amazingly analouge and correlative to the pedal. There are DBW applications that are horribly calibrated, however. The R56 MINI is rather lazy, and the Jaguar XJ [X350 platform] had a downright deviant intent than your foot. It all comes down to how tight they target emissions and fuel economy, and also the perspective and intent of the test drivers feedback on drivability.

The RPM "hanging" and general lazy response from many DBW cars are a strict result of the OEM calibrators minimizing emissions, period. Their first goal is to minimize emissions and maximize fuel economy, then any drivability preferences get worked in if possible. I know this from first hand information from OEM engine calibrators. Quick transients in gasoline cars' throttle response significantly add to tailpipe emissions.

If we don't like how the pedal feels from the factory, aftermarket ECU tuners have every opportunity to recalibrate the DBW setup, assuming they can crack the firmware.

[NESW20]

^well said.