New 86 shifting noises

[JackRabbit]

Originally Posted by humfrz

In my previous post I mentioned "timing is everything". Here is a challenge for you. Cruise out to a country road (by that time your car's transmission will be warmed up). Get going in 1st gear, at about 2-3,000 rpms, let off the gas and shift into 2nd gear (WITHOUT using the clutch). Do the same from 2-3 and 3-4.

When you get the timing right, the shifts will be smooth and effortless, without using the clutch. Yep, it takes a bit of practice.

Now, after you "learn" the timing, when you throw the clutch into the mix, shifting is a piece of cake -


humfrz

Challenge accepted

Now here's another thing that I'm scratching my head over..."notchy". What's that mean for a tranny? In the trumpet world, if a horn feels notchy, that's a good thing, it means there is a tight "notch" or "slot" for every note, with no free play. It means precision. Here though, it sounds like people say notchy to mean extra, clunky noises and free play. What's the deal?

[humfrz]

Originally Posted by JackRabbit

Challenge accepted

Now here's another thing that I'm scratching my head over..."notchy". What's that mean for a tranny? In the trumpet world, if a horn feels notchy, that's a good thing, it means there is a tight "notch" or "slot" for every note, with no free play. It means precision. Here though, it sounds like people say notchy to mean extra, clunky noises and free play. What's the deal?

I reckon some folks refer to a manual transmission as being "notchy" if it is difficult to shift gears or they feel a slight "grind" going from one gear to another.

It has been my experience with this transmission, the only time I feel it to be notchy, is when I screw up the shifting, usually by not pushing the clutch in all the way (lazy leg syndrome).

Assuming that the transmission and clutch system is functioning properly and once the driver learns how to shift properly, their should be no problems smoothly shifting this transmission.


humfrz

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by JackRabbit

Challenge accepted

Now here's another thing that I'm scratching my head over..."notchy". What's that mean for a tranny? In the trumpet world, if a horn feels notchy, that's a good thing, it means there is a tight "notch" or "slot" for every note, with no free play. It means precision. Here though, it sounds like people say notchy to mean extra, clunky noises and free play. What's the deal?

They mean the same really. To many this feels "notchy" because there are very specific locations of the shift gates. People that are used to sloppy shifter linkages that just need to be in the near vicinity for each gear don't always understand that "notchy" is actually a good thing.

[JackRabbit]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

They mean the same really. To many this feels "notchy" because there are very specific locations of the shift gates. People that are used to sloppy shifter linkages that just need to be in the near vicinity for each gear don't always understand that "notchy" is actually a good thing.

So, you're saying if I get better at hitting the gates just right when everything's warmed up, I should stop getting double-thunks and other extra noises when moving the shift lever? I always go clutch all the way in, too.

[HKz]

Originally Posted by StraightOuttaCanadaEh

I meant the only times I grind gears is when I’m accelerating WOT and hesitate during the shift. Then it just goes nuts Ghgrghrghrgrgr. Doesn’t happen anymore cause I learned to just be firm and positive with the movement.

hmm to me that is just missing your shift which I've yet to experience on this gearbox but I can imagine it would cause a grinding sound if you didn't engage the gear completely.. to be clear you don't have to shift fast AF to get a smooth shifting feel. For the first mile on my commute each day, I shift as slow as a granny and for the most part I get a pretty smooth 1st to 2nd gear change though I do have to blip the throttle since the revs drop a bit

[StraightOuttaCanadaEh]

Originally Posted by HKz

hmm to me that is just missing your shift which I've yet to experience on this gearbox but I can imagine it would cause a grinding sound if you didn't engage the gear completely.. to be clear you don't have to shift fast AF to get a smooth shifting feel. For the first mile on my commute each day, I shift as slow as a granny and for the most part I get a pretty smooth 1st to 2nd gear change though I do have to blip the throttle since the revs drop a bit

The most vivid example I remember was making a right at an intersection and flooring it. When I proceeded to shift at 7K rpm or so, the shifter wouldn’t go in all the way. This happened before (and after) but eventually I just learned to push the lever into 2nd rather than pulling and go through the motion confidently. Just wasn’t used to the precision of movement this car requires. My old car was a Mini Cooper S which has a buttery smooth shifting action with a dual mass flywheel so it was very buffered and you didn’t have to be precise at all. Don’t remember grinding even once in that car

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by JackRabbit

So, you're saying if I get better at hitting the gates just right when everything's warmed up, I should stop getting double-thunks and other extra noises when moving the shift lever? I always go clutch all the way in, too.

Nope it will always make noises. They will just be smoother ones.

[JackRabbit]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Nope it will always make noises. They will just be smoother ones.

Gotcha, thanks

[JackRabbit]

Originally Posted by humfrz

In my previous post I mentioned "timing is everything". Here is a challenge for you. Cruise out to a country road (by that time your car's transmission will be warmed up). Get going in 1st gear, at about 2-3,000 rpms, let off the gas and shift into 2nd gear (WITHOUT using the clutch). Do the same from 2-3 and 3-4.

When you get the timing right, the shifts will be smooth and effortless, without using the clutch. Yep, it takes a bit of practice.

Now, after you "learn" the timing, when you throw the clutch into the mix, shifting is a piece of cake -


humfrz

Ok humfrz, I went out and tried it today, on a quiet backroad outside of town. I took 1st gear up to 3k rpms, let off the gas, and pulled the stick down as the drivetrain unloaded. I popped it into neutral real easily, but I couldn't pull it all the way down into 2nd. I tried it in one fast motion, but it kept getting stopped in neutral. I tried about 5 times before trying it from 2nd to 3rd. that one felt closer to going in, but no dice. Is it bad for the transmission to keep trying? I want to get it! I believe you that the timing required to do it would make me a lot better at handling the gears.

Shifting motorcycles with no clutch like that was easy peasy, the gears just click up and down. In the car, it feels like it's too far from 1st to 2nd and the shift lever gets the door slammed shut before making it all the way to 2nd.

[ermax]

Clutchless shifts aren’t bad if you time it perfectly but even if it goes in that doesn’t mean your timing was perfect. Just close enough for the syncros to finish the job. I wouldn’t suggest doing this. It’s a good demonstration of how the tranny works but hard on the syncros.

If you really are curious how they work then watch some videos on YouTube or go to the junk yard and buy the cheapest MT you can find and tear it apart. Although this typically requires a press which most people don’t have. Having the stacks in your hand and turning them, sliding syncro hubs, etc gives a much better idea what is going on inside.

[humfrz]

Originally Posted by JackRabbit

Ok humfrz, I went out and tried it today, on a quiet backroad outside of town. I took 1st gear up to 3k rpms, let off the gas, and pulled the stick down as the drivetrain unloaded. I popped it into neutral real easily, but I couldn't pull it all the way down into 2nd. I tried it in one fast motion, but it kept getting stopped in neutral. I tried about 5 times before trying it from 2nd to 3rd. that one felt closer to going in, but no dice. Is it bad for the transmission to keep trying? I want to get it! I believe you that the timing required to do it would make me a lot better at handling the gears.

Shifting motorcycles with no clutch like that was easy peasy, the gears just click up and down. In the car, it feels like it's too far from 1st to 2nd and the shift lever gets the door slammed shut before making it all the way to 2nd.

Well, good on ya for giving it a try. It's is a bit more difficult on the 1-2 shift than the others. At least you got an idea about how the timing works -

As far as hurting the transmission by clutch-less shifting, if the timing is correct it won't hurt it. However, learning the "timing curve" could put a bit of wear on it.

The only plus in learning clutch-less shifting, over and above the timing thing, is being able to get somewhere if the clutch goes out -

I remember the time, back-in-the-day, actually night when - oh humfrz, you told that story once, can't you make up any new ones -

[anticubus]

Originally Posted by JackRabbit

So, you're saying if I get better at hitting the gates just right when everything's warmed up, I should stop getting double-thunks and other extra noises when moving the shift lever? I always go clutch all the way in, too.

On the double thunks and extra noises, we also have a dual mass flywheel (EDIT: No we don't, I just got all turned around recently). If I get sloppy with my rev matches or shifts it's always bouncing around making thunks and clunks. Also, if I'm slowing down with the clutch in and put it in first (Or second, but much quieter) I get a nice whirrrrrrrr.

Originally Posted by JackRabbit

Ok humfrz, I went out and tried it today, on a quiet backroad outside of town. I took 1st gear up to 3k rpms, let off the gas, and pulled the stick down as the drivetrain unloaded. I popped it into neutral real easily, but I couldn't pull it all the way down into 2nd. I tried it in one fast motion, but it kept getting stopped in neutral. I tried about 5 times before trying it from 2nd to 3rd. that one felt closer to going in, but no dice. Is it bad for the transmission to keep trying? I want to get it! I believe you that the timing required to do it would make me a lot better at handling the gears.

I do this all the time. Don't focus too much on the actual engine speed, just drive normally (For me that's shifting at 2.5k, not really giving it any beans. Think "average Camry driver") and then when you feel like shifting pull it towards the gate for your next gear, and just let it hit the gate until it pops in. Usually it takes a moment or two. It'll feel super lazy, especially if you're used to forcing it in. The caveat is that if you don't get the selector pressed against the gate before your RPMs drop under where the next gear would be matched, you'll just grind against the mesh teeth by forcing it more.

You're technically adding some wear to the synchros, but it's minimal under low load conditions like this.

[ermax]

Originally Posted by anticubus

On the double thunks and extra noises, we also have a dual mass flywheel. If I get sloppy with my rev matches or shifts it's always bouncing around making thunks and clunks. Also, if I'm slowing down with the clutch in and put it in first (Or second, but much quieter) I get a nice whirrrrrrrr.

The Twins have a solid single mass flywheel. They sure as hell sound like dual mass though with all the chatter.

[anticubus]

Originally Posted by ermax

The Twins have a solid single mass flywheel. They sure as hell sound like dual mass though with all the chatter.

You know, I thought that was the case for the first year and a half I had my car, but I swear I was just reading about someone thinking about resurfacing theirs and another member telling them not to as it was DM.

Also explains why so much motion makes it through the drivetrain. I've been getting sloppy ever since I got the wrong info in my head. 😬