Random Thoughts - Part Deux [NO POLITICS]

[MuseChaser]

Originally Posted by p1l0t

Yeah I was geeking out with the Skipper on aero/fluid dynamics the whole time.

Lots to it, with a lot more ability to control sail (wing) shape than there is up in the air... twist, slot loading, draft location, leading edge tension (luff), trailing edge (leech), foot tension (no aviation equivalent I can think of, but there probably is one)... it's a blast. Seeing and feeling how all of those forces interact as the air flows over a pretty-much infinitely adjustable surface is fascinating.

Originally Posted by p1l0t

The Skipper was impressed with how fast I was picking it up. At the same time the rudder being opposite was constantly screwing with me. I was keeping that gangster lean though so I guess was doing something right. My first tack change was a little slow..

Being heeled a lot ("gangster lean") is not usually that fastest configuration because it induces a lot of drag. Experiment with that a bit next time you go out; check your knotmeter when really heeled, then keep the same tack but let your main out a bit to lessen the heel angle. You should see a noticeable increase in speed. Yes, being heeled way over is a ton of fun, but when the boat is more "on its feet," you're getting more forward motion out of the air. I'm sure a lot of the theory behind what I'm about to type is faulty because... well... I have no idea what I'm talking about.. but as the boat heels, an increasing amount of the wind's energy is spent making the boat lean instead of propelling it forward (sort of like our horizontal vs vertical components of lift), and that in turn makes the keel and rudder create more drag as they have to work harder to make the boat track in the direction you want it to. Heel for fun.... more on her feet for speed.

Wing-on-wing is a beautiful way to sail.... unless it's really hot out. Also, and I'm saying this as a relatively inexperienced sailor, running direct downind is a little scary especially if you've got too much sail up. An uncomfortable rolling oscillation can setup since the force applied to the sail is parallel to the centerline of the boat, and it can multiply fast and cause major problems called a "death roll" ... sort of the sailing equivalent to our death spiral. I always sail just off direct downwind if the wind kicks up.

Originally Posted by p1l0t

Exactly what I'm doing right now. I want to learn and this guy is happy to have a another deckhand. I have been looking into it though and really it's not much more expensive than golfing (alot). If you join a yacht club and do most of your own maintenance it can be done for amazingly cheap...

Sailboats are agout a gajillion times less expensive than planes. We bought our 26' Pearson for $2000, sunk another $2000 into it (new sails and running rigging, primarily, plus a lot of cheap-to-do-but-lots-of-work renovations), and have a boat we can go out for a week or two at a time on and have a great time. Slip fees and winter storage add up to about the same amount as hangar rent for my PA28, and there's no expensive-to-very-expensive annual to deal with. I don't like the yearly commissioning process (painting the bottom and waxing the hull is a chore I dread like no other). Of course, another plus for sailboats is that they are basically FREE to sail, rather than burning 10gph of 100LL (or much more).

Enjoy!

[Sapphireho]

Old and new units. So excite.

[Ultramaroon]

Originally Posted by Spuds

It's like flying, but sideways.

lol


...and just as expensive.

[Ultramaroon]

Originally Posted by Sapphireho

Old and new units. So excite.

So they rheemed you a new one?

[Ultramaroon]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

The wind disappears and you start moving at two feet an hour you soon start to wonder just why you bother.

Been watching The Last Kingdom. That's when you need a Viking ship and some slaves.

[p1l0t]

Originally Posted by MuseChaser

Lots to it, with a lot more ability to control sail (wing) shape than there is up in the air... twist, slot loading, draft location, leading edge tension (luff), trailing edge (leech), foot tension (no aviation equivalent I can think of, but there probably is one)... it's a blast. Seeing and feeling how all of those forces interact as the air flows over a pretty-much infinitely adjustable surface is fascinating.




Being heeled a lot ("gangster lean") is not usually that fastest configuration because it induces a lot of drag. Experiment with that a bit next time you go out; check your knotmeter when really heeled, then keep the same tack but let your main out a bit to lessen the heel angle. You should see a noticeable increase in speed. Yes, being heeled way over is a ton of fun, but when the boat is more "on its feet," you're getting more forward motion out of the air. I'm sure a lot of the theory behind what I'm about to type is faulty because... well... I have no idea what I'm talking about.. but as the boat heels, an increasing amount of the wind's energy is spent making the boat lean instead of propelling it forward (sort of like our horizontal vs vertical components of lift), and that in turn makes the keel and rudder create more drag as they have to work harder to make the boat track in the direction you want it to. Heel for fun.... more on her feet for speed.

Wing-on-wing is a beautiful way to sail.... unless it's really hot out. Also, and I'm saying this as a relatively inexperienced sailor, running direct downind is a little scary especially if you've got too much sail up. An uncomfortable rolling oscillation can setup since the force applied to the sail is parallel to the centerline of the boat, and it can multiply fast and cause major problems called a "death roll" ... sort of the sailing equivalent to our death spiral. I always sail just off direct downwind if the wind kicks up.



Sailboats are agout a gajillion times less expensive than planes. We bought our 26' Pearson for $2000, sunk another $2000 into it (new sails and running rigging, primarily, plus a lot of cheap-to-do-but-lots-of-work renovations), and have a boat we can go out for a week or two at a time on and have a great time. Slip fees and winter storage add up to about the same amount as hangar rent for my PA28, and there's no expensive-to-very-expensive annual to deal with. I don't like the yearly commissioning process (painting the bottom and waxing the hull is a chore I dread like no other). Of course, another plus for sailboats is that they are basically FREE to sail, rather than burning 10gph of 100LL (or much more).

Enjoy!

SUNK $2k into it, LOL the terminology. Yeah the infinite shapes, I like that! Didn't think of it that way but it makes sense. It does seem like 10% the cost of flying from what I can tell. (Unless you go experimental but I am OK with certified aircraft).

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[Nevermore]

Work boredom persists while management ups the demands for progress. Since I cannot control the progress on my end (only ask for it), and since I have all this free time, I've decided to look up almost 500 individual pieces of information one at a time in an attempt to scrounge up some more updates.

From bored to tedious.

[Sapphireho]

Originally Posted by Ultramaroon

So they rheemed you a new one?

I guess so.

[Spuds]

Originally Posted by MuseChaser

Lots to it, with a lot more ability to control sail (wing) shape than there is up in the air... twist, slot loading, draft location, leading edge tension (luff), trailing edge (leech), foot tension (no aviation equivalent I can think of, but there probably is one)... it's a blast. Seeing and feeling how all of those forces interact as the air flows over a pretty-much infinitely adjustable surface is fascinating.




Being heeled a lot ("gangster lean") is not usually that fastest configuration because it induces a lot of drag. Experiment with that a bit next time you go out; check your knotmeter when really heeled, then keep the same tack but let your main out a bit to lessen the heel angle. You should see a noticeable increase in speed. Yes, being heeled way over is a ton of fun, but when the boat is more "on its feet," you're getting more forward motion out of the air. I'm sure a lot of the theory behind what I'm about to type is faulty because... well... I have no idea what I'm talking about.. but as the boat heels, an increasing amount of the wind's energy is spent making the boat lean instead of propelling it forward (sort of like our horizontal vs vertical components of lift), and that in turn makes the keel and rudder create more drag as they have to work harder to make the boat track in the direction you want it to. Heel for fun.... more on her feet for speed.

Force and energy are two different things. A magnet uses no energy to keep another magnet in the air if both are stationary. Same thing with the sail and lifting half the boat up.

That being said, mathematically there is a point where the sail is generating more lift (assuming you aren't stalling it), but the force longitudinal to the hull is decreasing, and this result in less speed. Though as hull speed increases, the best speed angle also changes... Also if the sail is less upright you have less surface area so there might be some losses there... Actually, we could probably solve this for any condition using some experimental data for sail shape and basic non-compressible flow calcs coupled with a hint of calculus... Drone sail boat racing anyone?

As for hull drag, the rudder and keel need to counteract the transverse forces of the wind, so I suppose that also is a factor, but different keels would have different l/d curves so .

But seriously, can I enter a drone boat in yacht races?

[Clutch Dog]

Not to break in the whole Boating is cool thing going on right now


Im looking up socal desert camping grounds. anyone got reccomendations?
Ive already done beach, coastal, and mountainous and high plains.

gonna bring my telescope and star gaze



alrighty back to boats

[p1l0t]

Originally Posted by Clutch Dog

Not to break in the whole Boating is cool thing going on right now


Im looking up socal desert camping grounds. anyone got reccomendations?
Ive already done beach, coastal, and mountainous and high plains.

gonna bring my telescope and star gaze



alrighty back to boats

Vegas is a cheap Southwest flight away..

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[p1l0t]

Originally Posted by Spuds

Force and energy are two different things. A magnet uses no energy to keep another magnet in the air if both are stationary. Same thing with the sail and lifting half the boat up.



That being said, mathematically there is a point where the sail is generating more lift (assuming you aren't stalling it), but the force longitudinal to the hull is decreasing, and this result in less speed. Though as hull speed increases, the best speed angle also changes... Also if the sail is less upright you have less surface area so there might be some losses there... Actually, we could probably solve this for any condition using some experimental data for sail shape and basic non-compressible flow calcs coupled with a hint of calculus... Drone sail boat racing anyone?



As for hull drag, the rudder and keel need to counteract the transverse forces of the wind, so I suppose that also is a factor, but different keels would have different l/d curves so .



But seriously, can I enter a drone boat in yacht races?

I had no idea the keel counteracted the sail forces until yesterday as well. I always thought it was just there to keep the boat upright in the waves (I mean it does that too I guess).

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[Clutch Dog]

Originally Posted by p1l0t

Vegas is a cheap Southwest flight away..

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I roof top tent and trail crawl> vegas is only a good time if theres sema, or im going to the track for a drift meet up or the whole drive your hero cars.

[NoHaveMSG]

Originally Posted by Nevermore

Work boredom persists while management ups the demands for progress. Since I cannot control the progress on my end (only ask for it), and since I have all this free time, I've decided to look up almost 500 individual pieces of information one at a time in an attempt to scrounge up some more updates.

From bored to tedious.

As much as I hate being bombarded with more work then I can do, I am glad I am never board.