Failure After J02 Recall - Discussion Threads

[maslin]

I’m certainly not saying an intake and exhaust did anything to damage the engine. But there it is in writing, your car is modified, it’s on you.

13 years in dealerships, I’ve only voided one guys warranty. His attitude was a huge part of it. Lots of mods on a brand new E63s, then coming in with warranty complaints directly resulting from his aftermarket parts.

Don’t be a jerk, and don’t start an issue with “corporate”, they’re the ones that are looking for every legal way out, the dealers really don’t care.

[Sportsguy83]

Originally Posted by maslin

Toyota is not responsible for later performance problems your vehicle may have that are the result of the nonToyota-approved vehicle modifications."

Originally Posted by maslin

I’m certainly not saying an intake and exhaust did anything to damage the engine. But there it is in writing, your car is modified, it’s on you.
.

By law and by the bolded part, there needs to be proof the modified parts caused the failure in order to deny any type of warranty.

Now, I understand for some stupid reason, most dealers love denying warranty work based on absurd things like, "your engine spun a bearing, it's because of your aftermarket led taillamps", but still by the letter of the law, the dealer is required to prove the mod was a direct cause of the failure.

Taking a moded car to a dealer should not (and does not by law) mean automatic warranty denial.

[maslin]

Originally Posted by Sportsguy83

By law and by the bolded part, there needs to be proof the modified parts caused the failure in order to deny any type of warranty.

Now, I understand for some stupid reason, most dealers love denying warranty work based on absurd things like, "your engine spun a bearing, it's because of your aftermarket led taillamps", but still by the letter of the law, the dealer is required to prove the mod was a direct cause of the failure.

Taking a moded car to a dealer should not (and does not by law) mean automatic warranty denial.

Agreed, the law is very clear.

But bring your car in with an intake and a blown engine, they’ll find someone to say the intake pushed it lean and smoked the engine. Throw a tune on it to not run lean, now it’s the tunes fault.

There’s very little chance anyone at the dealer cares or even knows you have a tune. People call and get the manufacturer involved, they pull one computer report and you’re done. The only reason I know how to check for a tune is from the E63 guy, they had me print specific pages from the car and online records, one single code doesn’t match, you’re done.

The dealers makes money fixing your car under warranty. They make zero money if it leaves on a tow truck. The manufacturer is the one losing money under warranty, they have entire departments dedicated to identifying and litigating what they consider warranty fraud.

[c.klingner]

Originally Posted by humfrz

Bummer -

So, what is (was) the car doing when it is (was) running?


humfrz

It was making a tapping noise, not a knock, sounded like valves tapping the pistons. It’s still making the noise and they haven’t removed the heads to check the bottom of the valves. Just took the valve cover off and compressed the valve springs to check the top of the valves. Honestly this dealership is garbage, they called the box that routed the intake noise to the cabin a smog box. None of my modifications interfere with sensors. They have already put the stock components on and it didn’t change anything. They still haven’t found the actual problem it’s still making the same noise.

[maslin]

If the valves are hitting the pistons a. The engine would not be running, and b. You would have faults for camshaft adjustment/timing. The only way for a valve to find the pistons is if a cam was set out a few teeth. That would be immediately apparent.

Most likely a valve clearance is way off, or there’s some play in the main/rod bearings or wrist pins. Probably needs a full year down, seems unlikely they’ll offer to pay. Even though they should.

[c.klingner]

Originally Posted by maslin

If the valves are hitting the pistons a. The engine would not be running, and b. You would have faults for camshaft adjustment/timing. The only way for a valve to find the pistons is if a cam was set out a few teeth. That would be immediately apparent.

Most likely a valve clearance is way off, or there’s some play in the main/rod bearings or wrist pins. Probably needs a full year down, seems unlikely they’ll offer to pay. Even though they should.

It only happens under load and as mentioned they already said 3-4 of the valves were loose and out of adjustment. A valve can tap a piston and not ruin the motor if it is barely tapping. This could however bend the valve ever so slightly and even though they fixed the valve lash and tightened them up the fact they are slightly bent would maintain the noise, as they could be sticking or not properly sealing the cylinder during compression.

[maslin]

You tell me how to tighten a valve, can’t find threads anywhere on those things?

A “loose” valve will tick, in my experience mostly at idle. A valve can’t just tap a piston, they can’t occupy the same space unless something is very wrong.

A tweaked/leaking valve will set a misfire code almost immediately. The sound of a leaking intake valve is not metallic.

I’ve replaced countless heads, pistons, bearings, etc for all kinds of noises. Each one is pretty clearly a different noise.

[c.klingner]

Originally Posted by maslin

You tell me how to tighten a valve, can’t find threads anywhere on those things?

A “loose” valve will tick, in my experience mostly at idle. A valve can’t just tap a piston, they can’t occupy the same space unless something is very wrong.

A tweaked/leaking valve will set a misfire code almost immediately. The sound of a leaking intake valve is not metallic.

I’ve replaced countless heads, pistons, bearings, etc for all kinds of noises. Each one is pretty clearly a different noise.

Ok master tech, can you please tell the dumbass dealership that then. Also I assumed what they meant was they had to re-shim them. If you want to get on here and troubleshoot me and be a **** that’s cool but your not helping my situation with this stupid ass dealership and your not offering any help just criticism that I assure you I am already expressing to the dealership. How about you try to be part of the solution not another part of the problem.

[Ultramaroon]

Originally Posted by c.klingner

It only happens under load and as mentioned they already said 3-4 of the valves were loose and out of adjustment. A valve can tap a piston and not ruin the motor if it is barely tapping. This could however bend the valve ever so slightly and even though they fixed the valve lash and tightened them up the fact they are slightly bent would maintain the noise, as they could be sticking or not properly sealing the cylinder during compression.

The ever-so-slightly-bent situation is a reach. Not impossible but... You say it only ticks under load. Have you considered an exhaust manifold leak?

[Ultramaroon]

Originally Posted by c.klingner

Ok master tech, can you please tell the dumbass dealership that then. Also I assumed what they meant was they had to re-shim them. If you want to get on here and troubleshoot me and be a **** that’s cool but your not helping my situation with this stupid ass dealership and your not offering any help just criticism that I assure you I am already expressing to the dealership. How about you try to be part of the solution not another part of the problem.

Go back and read again after you've cooled off. Maslin's been nothing but exceedingly helpful.

[maslin]

I am a master tech, have been since 2012. With Mercedes, but engine technology is pretty much the same across the board.

First thing I would do is attach the NVH kit with a Picoscope and go from there.

Is the noise metallic? Then it’s something metal. Only under load or when you lift off? A deep duka duka duka is from the bottom end, pico will point our main or rod bearings. A more frequent rattle is usually wrist pins, not a hollow sound. Piston slap sounds like piston slap, usually a little tinnier.

Or is it an air noise, compression or leak? Possibly fuel? High pressure pumps can click, not just chirp.

It could be a ton of things. Noisy valves are usually worst at idle. Noise from the timing chain is sometimes only evident at start up. Etc etc etc.

Sucks the dealer can’t get to a conclusion, hopefully it isn’t pushed in a corner collecting dust while they’re “working on it”.

Edit: I’m not trying to be obtuse. Engine are engines. They make a noise, 10 seconds in you have a general idea where to go. A stethoscope will get you tot a general area very quickly. It can be more difficult when it only occurs under load, but there are means to every end. Seems like the question of “who’s paying” might be the biggest hurdle at this point, I just find it so hard to believe these dealerships aren’t taking care of an issue that occurred shortly after having an engine out and 80% torn down.

[maslin]

Documents just went from 38 to 46! I’ll get through them when I get home, but here they are. Once again, they’re sorted by type and suffix, not necessarily date. They’re so hard to figure out any order. Each set of instructions is like 5 documents, only the lift at page is dated, the rest is just piecing together what is updated and what is old. Need to find a better site posting these.

https://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/acms/c...72&docType=RCL

Best I can find on my phone, this is dated 4/03. Serious update, and points directly to concerns pointed out in this thread.

“Update 4/03/19
- Added caution to cover allowing the engine to sit for two hours after reassembly
- Added recommendation to remove a relay and crank the engine before starting for the first time after repair”

First page:

https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/rcl/201...8V772-0400.pdf


And the update. Man this stuff is hard to read. The documents are not labeled, period. Rolling through looking for red updated sections there are so many stop! sections added as the updates progress. They’re working on fixing this, I’ve never seen a 150 page recall in my life.

[humfrz]

Originally Posted by Ultramaroon

The ever-so-slightly-bent situation is a reach. Not impossible but... You say it only ticks under load. Have you considered an exhaust manifold leak?

- now THAT is just waaaaaay too simple!





humfrz

[humfrz]

Originally Posted by c.klingner

Ok master tech, can you please tell the dumbass dealership that then. Also I assumed what they meant was they had to re-shim them. If you want to get on here and troubleshoot me and be a **** that’s cool but your not helping my situation with this stupid ass dealership and your not offering any help just criticism that I assure you I am already expressing to the dealership. How about you try to be part of the solution not another part of the problem.

Hi ya, c.klingner, we understand your frustration, however, that is not a reason to be lashing out at ol @maslin , who is one of the sharper knives in the drawer.

Have you considered taking your car to a different dealer?

My experience with "floating valves" has been sort of like a woman being "sorta" pregnant - either they are or they are not.

If a piston head touches a valve, to the point where you can hear it - the valve is doomed.

I sure hope you get things sorted out.


humfrz