Manufacturers don't care what car you want to buy...

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by rice_classic

I just lowered the price of my Honda too. It would cost ~3x the price I'm selling it for to build it. For the price of the TypeR, you could purchase and race my CRX for 3+years. Sharing a race car with your wife is good for the marriage.

Lots of the folks here do it (husband/wife racing).

baby steps, money first, car control & autox second, garage third, racecar fourth

CTR imho could be a 'forever' car, doing exactly what this thread talks about and influencing manufacturers to put money into making cars fun instead of marshmallow toasters.

And I have zero doubt your car is one of the best bargains in the whole damn country right now, I just don't have space for a car that doesn't get driven every day right now, let alone a tow vehicle & trailer

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by finch1750

You realize the irony in writing this on a car forum that exists because a car was built with tons of input from enthusiasts right?

Don't get hung up on "car enthusiasts like me". It was all meant to be vague and triggering, so people would read more. The main point is if you aren't a person who buys new cars then you aren't a person the manufactures care about. It is kind of like saying if you don't vote then you don't have a voice. They are selling to the desires of new-car-purchasers. They don't care what the used car market wants. If, for instance, new vehicle buyers want big luxurious vehicles, but used vehicle buyers want fast sports cars with manual transmissions, or they want economy cars with great reliability, then they will only produce big luxurious vehicles, and that is what used car buyers will have to buy.

I posted a link to an article that illustrated the mismatch: sedans are being replaced by crossovers because there has been a decrease in demand for cars and an increase in demand for crossovers (see Ford), but demand for cars in the used market is increasing. This could spell trouble if the demand for cars stays the same or increases, while the supply of used cars goes down. The reality is that the difference between the new and used market isn't great enough to likely matter unless something extreme happened in the economy.

[finch1750]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

Don't get hung up on "car enthusiasts like me". It was all meant to be vague and triggering, so people would read more. The main point is if you aren't a person who buys new cars then you aren't a person the manufactures care about. It is kind of like saying if you don't vote then you don't have a voice. They are selling to the desires of new-car-purchasers. They don't care what the used car market wants. If, for instance, new vehicle buyers want big luxurious vehicles, but used vehicle buyers want fast sports cars with manual transmissions, or they want economy cars with great reliability, then they will only produce big luxurious vehicles, and that is what used car buyers will have to buy.

I posted a link to an article that illustrated the mismatch: sedans are being replaced by crossovers because there has been a decrease in demand for cars and an increase in demand for crossovers (see Ford), but demand for cars in the used market is increasing. This could spell trouble if the demand for cars stays the same or increases, while the supply of used cars goes down. The reality is that the difference between the new and used market isn't great enough to likely matter unless something extreme happened in the economy.

Seems fairly simple to me. Used car demand increases due to lack of new cars (taking your premise as fact). When the demand flips they will start making cars again. Or people will have to buy what's available and manufacturers still make money.

And I don't know what the gripe is honestly. Cuz why would they care about a market that has zero positive affect on their bottom line? If anything it'll raise the price on used cars that dealers make a nice profit on upon trade ins. And they get trade in from people wanting a new car.

And it's still ironic

[WolfpackS2k]

I think the complaint about new car prices ever increasing is a bit disingenuous. Consumers demand more features year after year. 80% of them which I don't give a damn about (figure pulled out of my ass). But others do. They also want bigger cars and more powerful cars. But hardly anyone does anything to protest the ridiculous creeping cost of new cars. They just buy them and complain about the 72 month financing.

Personally, I've only purchased 2 cars new. My BRZ (loved it) and a VW TDI Sportswagen. BRZ was a manual, but I conceded on the VW and got an auto since it was DSG and manuals were very difficult to source (car was brand new but no longer in production so wasn't like I could order one from the factory). The VW only lasted 6 months in my possession, as I grew to loathe the transmission.

In the near future (less than 5 years) the only new cars I could possibly see myself interested in purchasing (and affording) are the new Supra and 2nd gen BRZ. Both would have to be a manual. I will. not. consider. an automatic. And if for some reason I find myself in a situation where I need a rear seat (i.e. a sedan) a manual will be required as well. Though given how those are all but discontinued in sedans that purchase would probably have to be CPO.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

I think the complaint about new car prices ever increasing is a bit disingenuous. Consumers demand more features year after year. 80% of them which I don't give a damn about (figure pulled out of my ass). But others do. They also want bigger cars and more powerful cars. But hardly anyone does anything to protest the ridiculous creeping cost of new cars. They just buy them and complain about the 72 month financing.

.

It isn't that the manufacturers are gouging with the car prices since they make very little profit per unit. The costs of making the cars have gone way up over the last 20 years. The average is $25 an hour. The companies that make the parts are not far behind at $20 an hour. Even the Parts made overseas have gone way up as wages there increased. Add in higher material costs and shipping fees that have tripled in the last 10 years and you would be hard pressed to make a car now that doesn't cost far more than in the past. The only way that the prices could be brought down would be to change the entire world economy and that would not go well for anybody in the long run. Yes, cars are more expensive than ever but there is not really anything that can be done about it.

[WolfpackS2k]

^Oh yeah? Then please tell me about all these end of year sales on Fords and GMs where they take $15,000 off of the sticker price.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

^Oh yeah? Then please tell me about all these end of year sales on Fords and GMs where they take $15,000 off of the sticker price.

They take a loss so they don't have to crush them.
The average profit margin to the manufacturer is between 8% and 10%. The dealers make between 1% and 5%.
They are expensive so people think there is huge profit made but that is not the reality. Yes, you look at there annual reports and see they "made" millions but that was all due to volume not mark up. There are exceptions of course (i.e. Ferrari or Lambo) where the money is made through margin and not volume but you pay for that rarity.
In comparison the average cell phone has a profit margin of 40% to 60% and many clothing items run as high as 200%. These just don't seem as much since the price tags are lower to start with.
You go out and start a business with a profit margin of 10% and get back to us on how many millions of $$s you make. These are not my opinion or thoughts but the cold hard facts and you can disbelieve all you want it won't change them.

[WolfpackS2k]

I understand that, especially with lower volume cars (i.e. sports cars). But still find it hard to swallow that Focus ST's can be sold at 30% off MSRP almost year round.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

I understand that, especially with lower volume cars (i.e. sports cars). But still find it hard to swallow that Focus ST's can be sold at 30% off MSRP almost year round.

Ford's overall profit margin for 2018 is 2.3%. If they are in fact knocking 30% off a certain model "almost year round" then they have a valid reason to drop it. There is not a hope in hell that they are making over a 30% profit margin on that car so they are selling them at a substantial loss.

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

I think the complaint about new car prices ever increasing is a bit disingenuous. ....

I was going down this path but you said it well.

If you consider the difference between a "base" car when I started driving in the mid-70s and a base car now, there is a huge differential in features that all add costs.

Some of them are safety related (airbags all over the car, better bumpers, DRL's, 3rd brake lights, etc)

Some are creature comforts that were options or nonexistent (AC, cup holders, stereo systems, electric windows/locks, key fobs, better interiors, etc)

All that adds cost to the base model over inflation. Are we better for some of it, yes, but it adds cost.

[WolfpackS2k]

Yeah.

Like a new in 1992 Civic had 75hp, 13" wheels and manual everything. 2 airbags and probably standard ABS but little else. A 2018 Civic has 160(ish?) hp, 8(or more?) airbags, and more safety systems than I care to even look up, or care about. 18" wheels and more standard luxury accessories than a 90s Benz S Class. It's also larger than an early 90s Accord.

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

Like a new in 1992 Civic had 75hp, 13" wheels and manual everything. 2 airbags and probably standard ABS but little else. A 2018 Civic has 160(ish?) hp, 8(or more?) airbags, and more safety systems than I care to even look up, or care about. 18" wheels and more standard luxury accessories than a 90s Benz S Class. It's also larger than an early 90s Accord.

And that was an upgrade from my '77 Civic CVCC Wagon that had 53HP and no catalytic converter (one of the last cars sold without one), no airbags, front only disk brakes (drums in the rear) and no radio.

[krayzie]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

Yeah.

Like a new in 1992 Civic had 75hp, 13" wheels and manual everything. 2 airbags and probably standard ABS but little else.

The base CX trim probably didn't even have a passenger side airbag yet, and no radio or power steering or even a tach.

[Leonardo]

Originally Posted by krayzie

The base CX trim probably didn't even have a passenger side airbag yet, and no radio or power steering or even a tach.

I had a civic hatchback with only a driver side mirror. It had a flat trim plate where the mirror went on the passenger side. I got a passenger side mirror at a scrap yard. It was a BIG upgrade! LOL