Am I stupid if I don't buy a Civic Si?

[qcbaker]

Originally Posted by motrek

I've definitely read this. Actually I've never owned a FWD car and I do like the concept of RWD, but if it's not going to translate into faster track times, not sure what the point is... I guess maybe it "feels" better...

RWD is "better" for most track applications because it splits the duties of accelerating and steering across both sets of tires. Theoretically, it allows the car to be pushed harder coming out of turns.

I really don't care about sliding the car around or drifting or anything. Seems like it just translates to the car getting through corners slower in most cases.

Just buy the Civic lol

[DandoX]

sounds like speed is something that is really important to you, and like its been said these cars are not that fast. If you go around a corner super fast it will start to slide naturally on stock wheels which can be fun.

Your comment about sliding around corners being slower (which is true) being a concern is a big indicator that you may not like this car in the long run. I'm thinking you might be most happy in a Type-R. As that car does everything you want except look cool.

[motrek]

Originally Posted by qcbaker

I just want to add one thing: a Posrche 911 is like $70K+ new. The current 86 starts around $27K. With a price differential that big, obviously the Porsche is going to crush the 86 in basically every performance/comfort metric. IMO, its barely worth comparing the two, let alone cross shopping them. If you can afford a 911, get that. Its going to be miles better than anything in the "entry level sports car" tier.

Yes, agreed, definitely. My point wasn't that I'm going to buy one or the other.

I'm using the Porsche as a counterpoint to all the people who say I don't "get" sports cars, and that sports cars have to have (or should have) noisy cabins and jarring suspensions.

There are plenty of people who have quiet, comfortable Porsches who crush it at the track. They would take offense to the idea that they don't "get" the concept of a sports car.

Heck, I was in a Lamborghini Huracan the other day and its cabin was quieter than the 86 with TRD exhaust. I suspect Lamborghini doesn't put holes in their footwells.

It seems there's a segment of the market that wants their car to be loud, and a segment of the market that wants their car to be fast, and I don't know if there's necessarily a lot of overlap between these two groups.

[bcj]

Bench racing on bits of paper.
meh

[motrek]

Originally Posted by bcj

Bench racing on bits of paper.
meh

I don't know anybody who has a Civic Si, much less one that they'd let me drive on a racetrack. Other than buying one, I'm not sure how I'd be able to track one myself. So, what's the alternative...

[qcbaker]

Originally Posted by motrek

Yes, agreed, definitely. My point wasn't that I'm going to buy one or the other.

I'm using the Porsche as a counterpoint to all the people who say I don't "get" sports cars, and that sports cars have to have (or should have) noisy cabins and jarring suspensions.

There are plenty of people who have quiet, comfortable Porsches who crush it at the track. They would take offense to the idea that they don't "get" the concept of a sports car.

Heck, I was in a Lamborghini Huracan the other day and its cabin was quieter than the 86 with TRD exhaust. I suspect Lamborghini doesn't put holes in their footwells.

It seems there's a segment of the market that wants their car to be loud, and a segment of the market that wants their car to be fast, and I don't know if there's necessarily a lot of overlap between these two groups.

I understand where you're coming from, but again, of course the porsche is going to be quiet and comfortable as well as a performance monster. It has about $50K more worth of engineering put into it. A cheaper car like the 86 has to make concessions to keep the price down. The NVH and general "comfort" level of the 86 (and Miata, for another car in a similar slot) are pretty dismal when you start comparing them to near-supercars like the 911 and actual supercars like the Huracan.

[Sasquachulator]

Originally Posted by motrek

I don't know anybody who has a Civic Si, much less one that they'd let me drive on a racetrack. Other than buying one, I'm not sure how I'd be able to track one myself. So, what's the alternative...

I think it just goes tback to the point list of whats important to you, and whether the concessions of the 86 are deal breakers or not (ie the lack of low end torque)

You do have some sports car experience (Porsche) to compare with but you cant compare it in terms of NVH and comfort, especially from a modded 86 (with the TRD exhaust and TRD springs).
I guarantee you the thing isn't as loud or as stiff stock.

[motrek]

Originally Posted by qcbaker

I understand where you're coming from, but again, of course the porsche is going to be quiet and comfortable as well as a performance monster. It has about $50K more worth of engineering put into it. A cheaper car like the 86 has to make concessions to keep the price down. The NVH and general "comfort" level of the 86 (and Miata, for another car in a similar slot) are pretty dismal when you start comparing them to near-supercars like the 911 and actual supercars like the Huracan.

Subaru and Toyota are big companies just like Porsche, I'm sure they all have a tremendous amount of engineering expertise on tap.

I haven't been in a recent GTI, but I know somebody who had one ~10 years ago and it seemed pretty quiet and comfortable. I also have a friend who has a Mini Cooper S, and it's not as quiet and comfortable as the GTI, but still more than any 86 I've been in. And these cars are all roughly comparable to e/o re: track times.

Unfortunately I'm busy this weekend or I would go look for a stock 86 to test-drive. Really anxious to see if my experience was ruined by the TRD exhaust and suspension...

[qcbaker]

Originally Posted by motrek

Subaru and Toyota are big companies just like Porsche, I'm sure they all have a tremendous amount of engineering expertise on tap.

True, but Porsche is making a car that sells for $70K. The 86 is meant to be a cheap car that prioritizes the driving experience over comfort and straight line performance. To keep the car at an acceptable price point, Subaru/Toyota have to make sacrifices, and those sacrifices are a stiff ride and cabin noise. But in exchange, you get the best handling car you can buy at this price point. If you're not comfortable with those trade-offs, the 86 probably isn't for you.

I haven't been in a recent GTI, but I know somebody who had one ~10 years ago and it seemed pretty quiet and comfortable. I also have a friend who has a Mini Cooper S, and it's not as quiet and comfortable as the GTI, but still more than any 86 I've been in. And these cars are all roughly comparable to e/o re: track times.

Neato. And neither of those cars handle anywhere close to as well as an 86. Again, trade-offs.

Unfortunately I'm busy this weekend or I would go look for a stock 86 to test-drive. Really anxious to see if my experience was ruined by the TRD exhaust and suspension...

TRD exhaust makes it louder, for sure. My car is stock and its pretty quiet when I'm in the "normal driving" part of the rev range. Can't speak to the suspension, but my FR-S is pretty stiff stock, so I wouldn't hold your breath. But the stiff ride is there to aid in cornering. So, thrice now, trade-offs.

[SuperTom]

If the noise or NVH is a concern you can always add dynamat or similar. But its going to add weight and this car doesn't have to ponies to overcome much more weight which is why its not there from the factory.

[Sapphireho]

Originally Posted by motrek

The Porsche I've ridden around in most is a mid-2000s that looks like it weighs around 3100 lbs. I suppose a lot of that could be sound-deadening material but that doesn't really speak to why it rides smoothly on public roads and also crushes it on a track...

Which goes back to something I've said for decades, and has a lot to do with this thread.


Americans have no real concept of what a true feel the road, raw sports car is. They really do not want a sports car, but a luxury car that is fast.


Big difference.


You will make a great Corvette owner some day.

[motrek]

Originally Posted by qcbaker

...
Neato. And neither of those cars handle anywhere close to as well as an 86. Again, trade-offs.
...

I guess this is a point I keep coming back to, how can a car handle much better yet not be faster around a track than other cars that have similar characteristics (size, weight, power). I mean, what's the point of handling then. I guess maybe a car can be easier to handle, so you don't have to be an expert to get it around a track as fast as other similar cars...

[motrek]

Originally Posted by Sapphireho

Which goes back to something I've said for decades, and has a lot to do with this thread.

Americans have no real concept of what a true feel the road, raw sports car is. They really do not want a sports car, but a luxury car that is fast.

Big difference.

You will make a great Corvette owner some day.

If you're talking about a sports car in the sense of a car made only for motorsport, then the 86/BRZ doesn't qualify at all. It doesn't come standard with a roll cage or a fire extinguisher. Why do the doors open? Why does it have rear seats? Why does it have a radio, or air conditioning? Why does it only have 3 point seatbelts?

Face it, your "sports car" also has a bunch of concessions made to everyday practicality and drivability. So no, you're not the one person who "gets it" when it comes to sports cars and everybody else is confused.

[chaoskaze]

Originally Posted by motrek

Subaru and Toyota are big companies just like Porsche, I'm sure they all have a tremendous amount of engineering expertise on tap.

I haven't been in a recent GTI, but I know somebody who had one ~10 years ago and it seemed pretty quiet and comfortable. I also have a friend who has a Mini Cooper S, and it's not as quiet and comfortable as the GTI, but still more than any 86 I've been in. And these cars are all roughly comparable to e/o re: track times.

Unfortunately I'm busy this weekend or I would go look for a stock 86 to test-drive. Really anxious to see if my experience was ruined by the TRD exhaust and suspension...

The more you talk about it........the more i think civic is your car out of the two. Like what i said the first time....... get that Civic type R don't get the Si.

For you to like the Twins, it had to be your project car....... Older gentlemans like tocat and humfrz can hold off from modding but the likes of you and me. >__> You gonna be modding the shit out of it & spent some big dollar.