Am I stupid if I don't buy a Civic Si?

[Spuds]

Originally Posted by motrek

Hmm. Well, on the track I thought the car was pretty great. I wanted more power in the straights but I also liked how it rewards driving skill with more momentum.

That's basically what prompted me to test-drive an 86 to see how it is on public roads. Unfortunately the demo model they had at the dealership had the TRD exhaust and TRD suspension. I thought the cabin noise was unbearable and the ride was much too harsh. Hopefully due to the TRD "upgrades." At some point I will go find a stock model to test-drive. I also learned that there's a hole in the passenger footwell to let in engine noise, and I will try plugging that for my next drive.

I have to say I was also pretty disappointed with the acceleration during regular street driving. The way it's geared, 2nd gear is super useful on the track when you're coming out of a turn at 30-40 MPH, but if you're just turning at an intersection at normal speeds (10-15 MPH) then it feels pretty worthless. Actually I'm thinking about test-driving an automatic 86/BRZ next to see if it feels any different. Maybe I've been spoiled by BMW 6-cylinders, but my current car is only rated at 185 lb-ft and it's 500 lbs. heaver so I don't know why it feels like it pulls SO much harder in 2nd... (thoughts??)

Walking into the dealership to do this test-drive, I was 90% sure I was going to buy a new 86/BRZ, but after that horrible drive, I'm down to like 30%. That's what prompted me to start looking for alternatives, e.g., Civic Si. I really hope the stock 86/BRZ is much quieter and more comfortable.

The ride is going to be harsh compared to most other cars. Thats part of how the chassis resets so quickly. Cabin noise is always high, that's how you get a modern rwd car to weigh in under 2800lb. You will still get plenty of engine noise with the hole plugged.

Differences in gearing and torque curves, and possibly cylinder configuration. 15-20 mph should be right at first torque peak, and 30 should be right in the dip so that's odd.

It's probably not much 'better' with 1" taller springs If you describe the drive as horrible on the street, then it's probably not the car for you.

[Spuds]

Originally Posted by motrek

Hmm. What got me onto this lap time thing was the recent issue of Car and Driver where they published all their lap times for the cars they've tested at VIR.

https://www.caranddriver.com/feature...istorical-data

The new Si seems to be much faster than the old ones and slightly faster than the S2000. The current Civic chassis (type R variant) also set the world-record for FWD at the Nurburgring a few months ago. Seems like Honda has made a pretty impressive car. Shame the exterior design seems to have been done by 6 year olds.

Tire tech has certainly come a long way since 2006. That and the track has gotten faster over the years due to some modifications as I understand it. I'm sure Honda spends a lot of time and effort sorting out the Civic in various trims. It's in the high volume appliance market so any little edge over the competition pays off big time.

[motrek]

Originally Posted by Spuds

The ride is going to be harsh compared to most other cars. Thats part of how the chassis resets so quickly. Cabin noise is always high, that's how you get a modern rwd car to weigh in under 2800lb. You will still get plenty of engine noise with the hole plugged.

Differences in gearing and torque curves, and possibly cylinder configuration. 15-20 mph should be right at first torque peak, and 30 should be right in the dip so that's odd.

It's probably not much 'better' with 1" taller springs If you describe the drive as horrible on the street, then it's probably not the car for you.

Yeah, hopefully I can get out and test drive a stock model in the next few weeks. Maybe you're right about the RWD configuration. I have a friend with a Mini which is ~2600 lbs. and its cabin is fairly quiet and the ride isn't too harsh and it seems pretty comparable to the BRZ on the track. But, FWD, so I don't know. I've also been in 400+ HP Porsches that are pretty quiet and comfortable but they're somewhat heavier and mid-engine so maybe also not very comparable.

[ZionsWrath]

Sounds like you want a street car. Civic si is a better street car IMO, or daily driver might be a better word

[Mr.ac]

Originally Posted by motrek

I joined this board in the hopes that some 86/BRZ owners would sell me on the car that I actually want, i.e., make a case for the 86/BRZ.

If I were to try to make a case for it, I'd say the handling is better. But how can the handling be better if it's slower around a racetrack than a car with similar weight and power. I mean, you could argue that the handling is more predictable, but better? Hmm.

Ha!
I for one, encourage people not to buy or sell their 86/BRZ.
Buy the Civic. It's the better car for you and it is faster!

You'll use the Civic to its 100% potential every day.

Where as the BRZ/86 you'll hardly get to use it with out living on an autox course or track. And even then there are way better cars to buy than the BRZ/86 for that.

Just buy the Civic you'll never regret it. Don't even think about it just do it. Just get the nice performance package on the Civic.

[jflogerzi]

I test drove both and there is no contest. I hated the clutch in SI. It was a quick test drive but I hated the SI. Its a great car, just not for me. There are other tangibles that when the right driving conditions and environment match up, it makes driving the twins so magical. Maybe as a compromise get a used 2016 brz with the bells and whistles and save the money for a few basic mods... Tune, Header, Exhaust(sounds plays a big role for me when driving on a canyon road) and tires. But as other have get the car that makes you happy. Its you that will haft to live with the decision.

[chaoskaze]

Originally Posted by Mr.ac

Ha!
I for one, encourage people not to buy or sell their 86/BRZ.
Buy the Civic. It's the better car for you and it is faster!

You'll use the Civic to its 100% potential every day.

Where as the BRZ/86 you'll hardly get to use it with out living on an autox course or track. And even then there are way better cars to buy than the BRZ/86 for that.

Just buy the Civic you'll never regret it. Don't even think about it just do it. Just get the nice performance package on the Civic.

exactly

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGBXNXdjcLo[/ame]

[Summerwolf]

Originally Posted by motrek

Hmm. Well, on the track I thought the car was pretty great. I wanted more power in the straights but I also liked how it rewards driving skill with more momentum.

That's basically what prompted me to test-drive an 86 to see how it is on public roads. Unfortunately the demo model they had at the dealership had the TRD exhaust and TRD suspension. I thought the cabin noise was unbearable and the ride was much too harsh. Hopefully due to the TRD "upgrades." At some point I will go find a stock model to test-drive. I also learned that there's a hole in the passenger footwell to let in engine noise, and I will try plugging that for my next drive.

I have to say I was also pretty disappointed with the acceleration during regular street driving. The way it's geared, 2nd gear is super useful on the track when you're coming out of a turn at 30-40 MPH, but if you're just turning at an intersection at normal speeds (10-15 MPH) then it feels pretty worthless. Actually I'm thinking about test-driving an automatic 86/BRZ next to see if it feels any different. Maybe I've been spoiled by BMW 6-cylinders, but my current car is only rated at 185 lb-ft and it's 500 lbs. heaver so I don't know why it feels like it pulls SO much harder in 2nd... (thoughts??)

Walking into the dealership to do this test-drive, I was 90% sure I was going to buy a new 86/BRZ, but after that horrible drive, I'm down to like 30%. That's what prompted me to start looking for alternatives, e.g., Civic Si. I really hope the stock 86/BRZ is much quieter and more comfortable.

This post right here explains in detail why you don't need an 86. Move on.

[qcbaker]

Originally Posted by StraightOuttaCanadaEh

It's not the handling. It's how it makes you feel. The feedback through the seat and steering wheel, the mechanical rawness. I don't know how an Si feels. Never driven one. But that's how the 86 makes me feel. It's just the delicacy and intuitiveness of all the inputs and responses that get me. The speed can always be addressed. But I feel like that purity can't be put into a car. It usually comes with it or it doesn't.

This. The 86 isn't a numbers car, its a drivers car. If you want to get around a track as fast as possible for the least amount of money, there are certainly better cars. But if you want to have the most fun per dollar, the 86 is hard to beat.

Also, the 86 is RWD, so easy donut/powerslide/dorifto fun all day long. Not really much of a thing on the Civic.

[TommyW]

Originally Posted by motrek

. I really hope the stock 86/BRZ is much quieter and more comfortable.

You are not a candidate for an 86. Get the Civic.

[SuperTom]

without going overboard few basic mods will open up the car headers,tune,tires power and handling wise

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by HKz

we don't convince people because far too often we've had posters come back and claim how much they think the 86/BRZ platform is just trash and that we're all too blind to see it...too many people have misconceptions about what role the twins best fill. It is a feel good very basic machine, nothing more.


The fact that you need convincing from a forum and you're worried about how fast & practical the 86 is are all red flags for a bad breakup one day. Practicality & speed, which the twins adequately have, were very low priorities for me. I loved how the twins look, I love the feel they provide, I prefer RWD dynamics and I personally like the "weak" engine as it allows me to bang it off the redline while staying legal.


The twins are very straightforward...if you had seat time, especially on the track (which is more than 95% of the posters who ask for opinions on their consideration) and if ya still couldn't decide whether it is right for you then I think it means move on...

[asdf]

Originally Posted by motrek

I really hope the stock 86/BRZ is much quieter and more comfortable.

You're going to continue to be disappointed.

[DarkSunrise]

If you need convincing to buy an 86, it's the wrong car for you.

There was a time when my mk6 GTI was putting down faster laptimes than my FRS at one of the tracks I go to. I still knew which one I'd rather drive and it wasn't even close to be honest.

If you prefer the Civic, there's nothing wrong with that. Plenty of reasons to prefer it. Buy one and go be happy, you have our blessing.