Contemplating FRS for track car

[Sleepless]

Originally Posted by GrandSport

How on earth do you destroy a set of hoosiers in 15 laps? That's barely more than a session at most HPDE.

Really bad pavement at some of those SoCal tracks!

[Sleepless]

I've had a E36 track car and prefer the 86 which is more nimble (lower CG) and you sit nice an low and the gearbox is better (once warmed up). Same drive with same tires are likely to be very close in lap times. E36 requires chassis strengthening or they'll fall apart. It's heavier so consumables will be more than on the 86.

When I had it, I loved the E36 but I would not go back.

[lutfy]

Originally Posted by Sleepless

I've had a E36 track car and prefer the 86 which is more nimble (lower CG) and you sit nice an low and the gearbox is better (once warmed up). Same drive with same tires are likely to be very close in lap times. E36 requires chassis strengthening or they'll fall apart. It's heavier so consumables will be more than on the 86.

When I had it, I loved the E36 but I would not go back.

I have owned at least 7 E36 M3s from BMWCCA I Stock race cars to TT/DE cars (including a Euro Spec SMG1 3.2l) from 2000 onwards.

Last year got an E36 M3 again as I wanted to dominate NASA TTD class but sold it to get an FRS. Fast forward, its plenty quick on most tracks (broke a 2014 lap record set by an E36 M3 at Summit Point by a margin) so its plenty quick as well.

The FRS is a lot more satisfying to drive than the older E36 M3. Lower center of gravity, better chassis (modern and stiffer), much lower consumable cost (rotors from Autozone around a $100 or so, tires last a while) and its more unique hence giving me greater satisfaction.

I'd keep the cost equation out of this as both cars will have their issues when tracking (power steering hose, reinforcements etc in E36 vs oil cooler and commong other issues with FRS) and see which one ticks the heart. End of the day, the heart will serve you well and let you stay commited. The E36s are very affordable to run too (if maintained right).

For me the FRS is a forever car (never say that but you know..) and the only reason I think about selling is to save my mental sanity (I think of race cars a lot and sometimes it can get toxic as I can live in my own head) so I am biased.

Lutfy

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by kch

Is that a tire problem or a driver problem?

It's a tire problem.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by GrandSport

How on earth do you destroy a set of hoosiers in 15 laps? That's barely more than a session at most HPDE.

15 laps = very badly overheated hoosiers. There may be tread left but they'll be rock hard afterwards.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by tony_r

Some drivers are particularly hard on cars/tires. I can see a set of A7's MAYBE but RE's or others... I think there is something else going on. I had one full hour of track time on a 50 AX run set of RE's with this car and, aside from the RF being more used than the rest (CCW course), the tires are still fine.

Some drivers can push the tires harder and longer within the same corner than others.

1 hot lap in, RE71R's are already melting for me. Of course, if they're already heat cycled out and rock hard, instead of melting away, they'll just chunk or shred instead.

[CSG Mike]

These RE71R's have 16 laps on them, and 6 heat cycles.





They are well past their prime, and have maybe 8 laps left in them before they will cord.

These tires were used carefully, and not allowed to significantly overheat, preserving their grip as best as possible.

[CSG Mike]

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Gs4sRuNbX4[/ame]

Stupid clickbaity titles

[tony_r]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Some drivers can push the tires harder and longer within the same corner than others.

1 hot lap in, RE71R's are already melting for me. Of course, if they're already heat cycled out and rock hard, instead of melting away, they'll just chunk or shred instead.

It wasn't a dig on you. Some drivers can run fast laps without overheating or killing tires, etc. That's just how it is. And I'm not saying I can do this.

The car is very clearly quick and I can see how it overheats tires, particularly the RE71 and A7. Both tires have similar peak temps at ~140*. Mostly stock lower power cars, and newer drivers in faster cars can use them with success. Even skilled drivers in faster cars have also used with success. But throwing the entire line of tires out for everyone at the track is disingenuous at best.

Perhaps the SX2 has a much higher temp threshold, maybe more similar to an R7 at 180-200*? I bet it's a rock for a street tire.

[GrandSport]

What does everyone think of the deal on the FRS? It's a 2014 with 46k miles

From the OP:
Car comes with spare wheels and 2 spare sets of track wheels/tires, new clutch last month. Also has a door with a big ding and some hail damage (about $1700 to repair both). $10k-10.5k.

List of upgrades:
White line sways f/r 3 way adjustable
RCE springs 225# all around lowered car 20mm
Stock shocks
Rear white line subframe brace
White line top hats
Camber bolts
Perrin cat back exhaust 2.5
Motegi 17x7.5 wheels
Goodrich steel brake lines
Open flags tablet tuner
Uninstalled OFT headers with head gasket

[Summerwolf]

Seems like a good buy at 10k if it's got a clean title.

[kch]

Originally Posted by GrandSport

What does everyone think of the deal on the FRS? It's a 2014 with 46k miles

From the OP:
Car comes with spare wheels and 2 spare sets of track wheels/tires, new clutch last month. Also has a door with a big ding and some hail damage (about $1700 to repair both). $10k-10.5k.

List of upgrades:
White line sways f/r 3 way adjustable
RCE springs 225# all around lowered car 20mm
Stock shocks
Rear white line subframe brace
White line top hats
Camber bolts
Perrin cat back exhaust 2.5
Motegi 17x7.5 wheels
Goodrich steel brake lines
Open flags tablet tuner
Uninstalled OFT headers with head gasket

It's a decent price, but you're going to need to invest in some camber plates and RLCAs at the very least to get a proper alignment. That plus oil cooler and brake pads should be solid.

Edit: and because it's a 2014, maybe some hood vents to protect your coil packs.

[14stu]

Originally Posted by Summerwolf

Seems like a good buy at 10k if it's got a clean title.

$10k is cheap for a manual 14, depending on how bad the hail damage is. Since you're tracking it the cosmetic stuff probably doesn't matter to you and the "battle damage" you'll get would mar whatever car you drive, eventually.

You'll want an oil cooler since this is Texas, and you'll eventually have to address the coilpacks (or regularly replace them).

If you're tracking more than once a month, one of the BBK will be a good investment. I went with the AP Racing Sprint kit and since it uses cheaper, thicker pads I'm most of the way to covering the cost of the kit in savings after just a couple of years (there's a whole thread where one of the members did a cost analysis and it holds up).

There is a TrackJunkies local forum member selling wheels and tires that you might want to pick up (good stuff at a reasonable price and locally available). 17x9 wheels and 255/40-17 tires are the way to go (you can't really go bigger without fender flares).

The rest of the setup is adequate, you can always upgrade but there isn't anything wrong with what's on there. If it were me I'd run that setup until the end of the season or until summer when it's too hot, then decide what you want to upgrade (and how far you want to go with everything).

Your plans dictate what you should do. If you want to run with the SCCA Time Trials or NASA you should build to a class. If you're just out to do some lapping and learning, focus on reliability mods (cooling, brakes, and fixing anything that breaks). If you want to set some records, there are builds for that too, but just like any platform you can spend as fast as you want to be.

The stock setup is camber limited, but that's the only real weak point. From there you're just refining what you want to make better, not really fixing any inherent issues (well, there's always more power to add).

Aero can be a fun project, but never really necessary for a non-competitive car.

Vorshlag is local and Terry Fair has some first hand FRS knowledge with their LS Swap project. They can set you up with whatever you want and have a number of packages they've developed for the platform. The main benefit of going with them is that their new shop is pretty close to ECR and they are good people.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by tony_r

It wasn't a dig on you. Some drivers can run fast laps without overheating or killing tires, etc. That's just how it is. And I'm not saying I can do this.

The car is very clearly quick and I can see how it overheats tires, particularly the RE71 and A7. Both tires have similar peak temps at ~140*. Mostly stock lower power cars, and newer drivers in faster cars can use them with success. Even skilled drivers in faster cars have also used with success. But throwing the entire line of tires out for everyone at the track is disingenuous at best.

Perhaps the SX2 has a much higher temp threshold, maybe more similar to an R7 at 180-200*? I bet it's a rock for a street tire.

140F or 140C?

RE71R are well over 220F after 1 hot lap if driven hard.

RE71R are a time attack special. If you're looking for similar grip, you can find other tires that have much more life than a RE71R, but don't carry the bs "200tw" rating. The only appropriate situation for the RE71R is when it is the only viable tire for competition within the class, e.g. a class that requires "200tw" tires. They are, in terms of both tire life and seat time quality, a terrible value.