Doug Demuro’s review of my personal 2018 BRZtS

[Summerwolf]

Originally Posted by spike021

If you put it into the specific situation where it becomes a hindering problem, then sure it's noticeable. But if you drive the car a certain way, then you avoid it 90+ percent of the time.



So the main problem with the dip is when you're trying to accelerate. There's an easy way to deal with it, and that's by putting the engine in a situation that it does well in for acceleration, namely outside the dip. Once you've accelerated to where you want to be, then you can cruise in the dip with no problems.

This has been a huge, brought up thing.... you learn to drive around it, or it forces you to. That's why everyone bitches about it. You cant just drive lazily and not experience it. Not everyone wants to drive 10/10ths in an acceleration scenario every day. Taking off from a stop you either shift before it, drive through it, or fucking launch it to avoid it entirely. Highway driving.... fuggit. Downshift two gears. Most cars to increase 10 mph at 65 they just do it, this car is right in the sweet spot of dip in that scenario. To drive around it you have to learn to do that. Yeah, it requires engagement but it's annoying at times. Quit pretending this isn't a noticeable feature of the car.

[spike021]

Originally Posted by Summerwolf

This has been a huge, brought up thing.... you learn to drive around it, or it forces you to. That's why everyone bitches about it. You cant just drive lazily and not experience it. Not everyone wants to drive 10/10ths in an acceleration scenario every day. Taking off from a stop you either shift before it, drive through it, or fucking launch it to avoid it entirely. Highway driving.... fuggit. Downshift two gears. Most cars to increase 10 mph at 65 they just do it, this car is right in the sweet spot of dip in that scenario. To drive around it you have to learn to do that. Yeah, it requires engagement but it's annoying at times. Quit pretending this isn't a noticeable feature of the car.

Yeah, and I'm not seeing the problem.

You know, to me, I'm thankful as hell that this car is unlike "most cars". That means it was built a certain way. And don't mind me while I re-quote myself:

There's an easy way to deal with it, and that's by putting the engine in a situation that it does well in for acceleration [...]

And no, you don't have to "fucking launch it to avoid it entirely". I never rev to the red line or need to double down-shift "on the highway" and I've had no issues ever since the first month I bought the car, once I learned how to avoid the torque dip. I didn't even understand why the car was so slow at the time until somebody explained the dip to me and how to avoid it. Now I almost never encounter it, I still get solid mileage, and I never have anything to complain about.

I think this just circles back to one core problem: people buying this car for the wrong reasons and expecting it to work a certain way under conditions it wasn't build from factory for.

You either change that issue yourself like plenty do, or you fucking buy a different car because clearly you're not capable of learning the quirks (heh how convenient for this thread) of the engine it was given.

It's honestly that simple.

[Summerwolf]

Originally Posted by spike021

Yeah, and I'm not seeing the problem.

You know, to me, I'm thankful as hell that this car is unlike "most cars". That means it was built a certain way. And don't mind me while I re-quote myself:



And no, you don't have to "fucking launch it to avoid it entirely". I never rev to the red line or need to double down-shift "on the highway" and I've had no issues ever since the first month I bought the car, once I learned how to avoid the torque dip. I didn't even understand why the car was so slow at the time until somebody explained the dip to me and how to avoid it. Now I almost never encounter it, I still get solid mileage, and I never have anything to complain about.

I think this just circles back to one core problem: people buying this car for the wrong reasons and expecting it to work a certain way under conditions it wasn't build from factory for.

You either change that issue yourself like plenty do, or you fucking buy a different car because clearly you're not capable of learning the quirks (heh how convenient for this thread) of the engine it was given.

It's honestly that simple.

I dont personally care about the dip, it's just something that is there... I CAN however see how people find it annoying.

You've never double down shifted on the highway?!?! By your own logic that means at some point you're driving in the torque dip.

I think it's just funny how many will make an excuse or say something deragatory to someone else to quell their own mind and forgive the car its shortcomings. There is obviously a torque dip from the factory, dont pretend there isn't.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by spike021

Yeah, and I'm not seeing the problem.

You know, to me, I'm thankful as hell that this car is unlike "most cars". That means it was built a certain way. And don't mind me while I re-quote myself:



And no, you don't have to "fucking launch it to avoid it entirely". I never rev to the red line or need to double down-shift "on the highway" and I've had no issues ever since the first month I bought the car, once I learned how to avoid the torque dip. I didn't even understand why the car was so slow at the time until somebody explained the dip to me and how to avoid it. Now I almost never encounter it, I still get solid mileage, and I never have anything to complain about.

I think this just circles back to one core problem: people buying this car for the wrong reasons and expecting it to work a certain way under conditions it wasn't build from factory for.

You either change that issue yourself like plenty do, or you fucking buy a different car because clearly you're not capable of learning the quirks (heh how convenient for this thread) of the engine it was given.

It's honestly that simple.

Under heavy acceleration the dip lasts about a quarter of a second. The car still has plenty of torque it doesn't all go away. A problem if you are shooting for that record 1/4 mile time but zero impact if just getting up to speed in a hurry.
During light acceleration there is no need to even get into the range before shifting and even if you do it makes virtually no difference at all since you are not pushing for speed.


The way people talk the car comes to a screeching halt when it hits the dip instead of the very brief blip that is the reality.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Summerwolf

I dont personally care about the dip, it's just something that is there... I CAN however see how people find it annoying.

You've never double down shifted on the highway?!?! By your own logic that means at some point you're driving in the torque dip.

I think it's just funny how many will make an excuse or say something deragatory to someone else to quell their own mind and forgive the car its shortcomings. There is obviously a torque dip from the factory, dont pretend there isn't.

Nobody is pretending there isn't. The dispute is the severity of the impact for daily driving. That impact is nothing. If it is causing issues it is a driver shortcoming not the car.

[bzdont]

Originally Posted by spike021

Yeah, and I'm not seeing the problem.

You know, to me, I'm thankful as hell that this car is unlike "most cars". That means it was built a certain way. And don't mind me while I re-quote myself:



And no, you don't have to "fucking launch it to avoid it entirely". I never rev to the red line or need to double down-shift "on the highway" and I've had no issues ever since the first month I bought the car, once I learned how to avoid the torque dip. I didn't even understand why the car was so slow at the time until somebody explained the dip to me and how to avoid it. Now I almost never encounter it, I still get solid mileage, and I never have anything to complain about.

I think this just circles back to one core problem: people buying this car for the wrong reasons and expecting it to work a certain way under conditions it wasn't build from factory for.

You either change that issue yourself like plenty do, or you fucking buy a different car because clearly you're not capable of learning the quirks (heh how convenient for this thread) of the engine it was given.

It's honestly that simple.

Amazing that you refuse to answer the question head-on. Let's take YOUR example: "Once you've accelerated to where you want to be, then you can cruise in the dip with no problems."
So I'm cruising in the dip, but now I want to accelerate. In most cars, I can just step on the gas when cruising at 3-4k rpm in order to accelerate. But in this car, I have to DOWNSHIFT in order to get any torque.


It's a fundamental flaw, and the fact that you've "learned to deal with it" doesn't change that fact.

[Summerwolf]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Nobody is pretending there isn't. The dispute is the severity of the impact for daily driving. That impact is nothing. If it is causing issues it is a driver shortcoming not the car.

Ehhhh, I think your 1/4 of a second drive out is a little short, but sure. Daily driving, if you're not thinking about driving this car specifically I can see where you'd run in to it more.

This is the first car I've had that noticeably stopped making power, dropped power, and then continued on later on in rpms. It is not the normal, and it is a downside. It's like a shitty VTEC.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by bzdont

Amazing that you refuse to answer the question head-on. Let's take YOUR example: "Once you've accelerated to where you want to be, then you can cruise in the dip with no problems."
So I'm cruising in the dip, but now I want to accelerate. In most cars, I can just step on the gas when cruising at 3-4k rpm in order to accelerate. But in this car, I have to DOWNSHIFT in order to get any torque.


It's a fundamental flaw, and the fact that you've "learned to deal with it" doesn't change that fact.

If you are cruising in the dip and hit the gas the dip is the starting pint and therefore has no impact. Again you still have torque it hasn't all disappeared.

[bzdont]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

If you are cruising in the dip and hit the gas the dip is the starting pint and therefore has no impact. Again you still have torque it hasn't all disappeared.

You have torque, but not enough. If you just step on the gas while in the dip, it can take what seems like forever to feel anything happening, and that's because you don't have enough torque!

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by bzdont

You have torque, but not enough. If you just step on the gas while in the dip, it can take what seems like forever to feel anything happening, and that's because you don't have enough torque!

Yep those fractions of a second are an eternity to some.

[Sasquachulator]

Its a small N/A high revving motor. These pretty much don't exist except for this car nowadays.
The characteristic is pretty much low torque, high HP and high RPM.
You have to downshift If you want power.

Bigger motors have more torque.
Turbo cars have more torque or instant peak torque at low RPM.

Subcompact and compact NA motors/econobox motors are pretty much torqueless wonders without much power or high revs. The behaviour is closest to these motors.

The dip might be causing an exaggeration of the small N/A motor but that characteristic is the same.

-Ever driven an RX8? you have to wait forever if you don't downshift.
-Drive a Celica/Lotus elise/Corolla XRS/2zz equipped car? Thing has no torque, gotta downshift.
-VTEC Honda's of yore before they got turbos? Again, torqueless wonders.
-even an econobox. Nothing happens unless you downshift.

[Summerwolf]

Originally Posted by Sasquachulator

Its a small N/A high revving motor. These pretty much don't exist except for this car nowadays.
The characteristic is pretty much low torque, high HP and high RPM.
You have to downshift If you want power.

Bigger motors have more torque.
Turbo cars have more torque or instant peak torque at low RPM.

Subcompact and compact NA motors/econobox motors are pretty much torqueless wonders without much power or high revs. The behaviour is closest to these motors.

The dip might be causing an exaggeration of the small N/A motor but that characteristic is the same.

-Ever driven an RX8? you have to wait forever if you don't downshift.
-Drive a Celica/Lotus elise/Corolla XRS/2zz equipped car? Thing has no torque, gotta downshift.
-VTEC Honda's of yore before they got turbos? Again, torqueless wonders.
-even an econobox. Nothing happens unless you downshift.

Hold up. Most of those cars listed dont have torque, sure.... but what they dont generally do is build power, stop and drop, then build power again. That's what this motor does. Even a versa note doesn't have that characteristic, what torque it has it builds linearly. Vtec cars build up to VTEC and then climb. It's a different characteristic.

[bzdont]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Yep those fractions of a second are an eternity to some.

If I just hit the gas, it can take a lot longer than that to get out of the dip. And so I downshift instead in order to accelerate, just like you do.


Don't get me wrong, I love this car otherwise, the handling, the steering, etc. But it's amazing how many people just can't bring themselves to acknowledge the importance and impact of this obvious flaw.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Sasquachulator

Its a small N/A high revving motor. These pretty much don't exist except for this car nowadays.
The characteristic is pretty much low torque, high HP and high RPM.
You have to downshift If you want power.

Bigger motors have more torque.
Turbo cars have more torque or instant peak torque at low RPM.

Subcompact and compact NA motors/econobox motors are pretty much torqueless wonders without much power or high revs. The behaviour is closest to these motors.

The dip might be causing an exaggeration of the small N/A motor but that characteristic is the same.

-Ever driven an RX8? you have to wait forever if you don't downshift.
-Drive a Celica/Lotus elise/Corolla XRS/2zz equipped car? Thing has no torque, gotta downshift.
-VTEC Honda's of yore before they got turbos? Again, torqueless wonders.
-even an econobox. Nothing happens unless you downshift.

But
But
But
I shouldn't have to downshift. I should be able to drive the car with just that one pedal. That is what all the cool cars do.


Amazing how so many scream "MT is the best since it is fun" until they actually have to use it to accelerate out of a "dip". Then it becomes work and sucks.