This is the C8 mid-engine Chevy Corvette

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

I don't know, but the fact is that a Camaro ZL1 1LE was faster than the Corvette around the Nurburgring, so how do you think that is sitting with purists? It means that the Corvette needs to step up its game.

Don't know if this is valid. If GM was concerned about this then they would do what they have always done, detune the Camaro so it would fall under the 'Vette. It's two different markets, or at least it is to me.

I think they have room for both the MR and the FR, as I suspect the MR is going to leave a nice price gap where the FR fits fine. Not saying it wouldn't be very cool if GM somehow magically produced this bad boy at a current Corvette price levels. If I had to guess though, I don't think the platform provides them with the ability to start right above the top Camaro trim price and go up, seems more likely this would be an additional link in the pricing chain above the FR top level trim.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Dadhawk

Don't know if this is valid. If GM was concerned about this then they would do what they have always done, detune the Camaro so it would fall under the 'Vette. It's two different markets, or at least it is to me.

I think they have for both the MR and the FR, as I suspect the MR is going to leave a nice price gap where the FR fits fine. Not saying it wouldn't be very cool if GM somehow magically produced this bad boy at a current Corvette price levels. If I had to guess though, I don't think the platform provides them with the ability to start right above the top Camaro trim price and go up, seems more likely this would be an additional link in the pricing chain above the FR top level trim.

This^
Everybody likes to talk about the top trim levels of the Camaro or Corvette as if they are the majority. This is so far from accurate it isn't even a real world consideration.
There are six levels of trim for the Camaro and several option packs that can be added to each. The Corvette has a whooping four models with three trim options for each of those giving a grand total of twelve possible versions.
Now, I could not find what percentage of the top trim makes up total sales but do know that the SRT 392 Challenger is 4% (we will ignore the Hellcat and Demon since their % is in decimals) and the Mustang GT Premium is 5%. If we take those numbers and consider the top levels of the Chevys are about the same then saying that the MR will be "close in price" is way off base.
The vast majority of all the popular muscle cars sold are NOT the top trim performance models but the much less expensive base or mid level ones. People buy them for the image not the actual performance. For every GT doing burnouts and attempting to kill crowds there are 95 lower levels driving to work and doing errands by house wives and middle aged accountants.
So if we are saying the MR is going to replace and be priced the same as the FR then it needs to come in at $55K or $60K not the $90K of the rarely sold top model. There is not a hope in hell that MR will be sold under $100K even in a base model. The FR will live on.

[WolfpackS2k]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

I agree with @Yardjass

I could see them drop the FR setup eventually. Corvette purists might whine just like Porsche purists threw a fit when the Cayman went 4 cylinder, but the 718 S is faster than the outgoing GT4. It’ll be the same when the new MR destroys the FR.

I'd just like to interject here to say that no, the 718 S is NOT faster than the outgoing GT4. With launch control and PDK, yes it's acceleration is better. But the GT4 was 6sp manual only. If you compare 6sp to 6sp they're close to the same. And the GT4 dusts the 718 around most any track. You know, the reason people bought GT4s for.

Originally Posted by Dadhawk

Don't know if this is valid. If GM was concerned about this then they would do what they have always done, detune the Camaro so it would fall under the 'Vette. It's two different markets, or at least it is to me.

I think they have for both the MR and the FR, as I suspect the MR is going to leave a nice price gap where the FR fits fine. Not saying it wouldn't be very cool if GM somehow magically produced this bad boy at a current Corvette price levels. If I had to guess though, I don't think the platform provides them with the ability to start right above the top Camaro trim price and go up, seems more likely this would be an additional link in the pricing chain above the FR top level trim.

You would think it's 2 different markets. But they're both coupes, and look at all the idiots on here that say a more powerful BRZ would cannibalize sales from the STI, which is a sedan.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by Dadhawk

Don't know if this is valid. If GM was concerned about this then they would do what they have always done, detune the Camaro so it would fall under the 'Vette. It's two different markets, or at least it is to me.

GM usually gives the Vette the new performance parts first, but not always, and the two models aren't built like Porsche does the Cayman and 911, that is, to make the 911 always better, so rivalry and freedom to best each other is always possible. There is a saying that you win on Sunday, so you can sell on Monday. Even though the majority of people don't buy the top spec models, if those models have prestige then people who buy the lower trims expect to get a taste of that or bragging rights, so I'm saying GM might need to go mid engine for allure of their more expensive model, to give value for that premium price.

https://www.corvetteforum.com/articl...-car-corvette/

The minds behind the Corvette, we assume, won’t be happy with the outcome, which can only mean one thing: a redesign.

-------------------------------------

Originally Posted by Tcoat

So if we are saying the MR is going to replace and be priced the same as the FR then it needs to come in at $55K or $60K not the $90K of the rarely sold top model. There is not a hope in hell that MR will be sold under $100K even in a base model. The FR will live on.

Can we begin to count the number of times you have made this claim without substantiating it with evidence? What inherently makes the MR configuration necessitate a $30-35k premium over an identical model that is FR? Why can't GM build a $55k MR Corvette?

----------------------------------

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

I'd just like to interject here to say that no, the 718 S is NOT faster than the outgoing GT4. With launch control and PDK, yes it's acceleration is better. But the GT4 was 6sp manual only. If you compare 6sp to 6sp they're close to the same. And the GT4 dusts the 718 around most any track. You know, the reason people bought GT4s for.

It really depends on the track, who is doing the tests, are they spec'ing the cars directly from the factory, or evening things out with 6speed vs 6speed, or hardtop vs hardtop or tires vs tires. Sometimes the GT4 wins, barely; sometimes the 718 S wins, barely. The point is the new S is half the price to 50% of the price of the GT4 with almost identical performance. That is the VALUE Porsche applied to this change.

My guess is that GM will go MR at the same price which adds VALUE with that change.

https://carbuzz.com/news/2016-porsch...-718-boxster-s

A simple comparison between the 2017 Boxster S and a 2016 Cayman GT4 (a manual) yields a nearly identical lap time, coming in only two tenths of a second slower than its more powerful hardtop sibling that’s lighter, more rigid, and equipped with better tires. If that doesn't sell you, you must lie firmly in the purist camp. Even with such an enticing package, Porsche knew it had a mountain to climb to lull the purists in even though plenty of the German cars, including the top trims, already come saddled with exhaust-driven air compressors. Listen to Lagos because we think he makes a fair case for the 718's turbochargers.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

Can we begin to count the number of times you have made this claim without substantiating it with evidence? What inherently makes the MR configuration necessitate a $30-35k premium over an identical model that is FR? Why can't GM build a $55k MR Corvette?

Yes we can count. It is now twice. This thread is all speculation and I can speculate with the rest so I don't need to substantiate shit.


Your support for an inexpensive MR Corvette is that they made the fucking Fiero. That is just foolish logic.
Scale of production, massive development costs, the intended target market and a few other things I can't think of right now all will make the MR inherently more expensive. These things will be intended to compete in a market against Lambos and Ferraris and will not start at $55K. Now, if we want to say it will come in at the price of the top two levels I am with you.
We will see soon.

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

Can we begin to count the number of times you have made this claim without substantiating it with evidence? What inherently makes the MR configuration necessitate a $30-35k premium over an identical model that is FR? Why can't GM build a $55k MR Corvette?

I think you are confusing MR as the driving force here. They could absolutely build a MR car that cost no more than Chevy Spark if they wanted but from what I can see that is not the car they have configured here.

GM would have had to start with the low end as the target and build up from there. You can't build the high end and ratchet it down, at least not practically. To my untrained eye the swooping body and such on what we seen is expensive to build, a much more complex body than the C7 Vette.

That said, I'm hoping I'm wrong and you are right. I would buy a $55K MR Corvette tomorrow assuming I can get it without a 2x dealer add-on fee.

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

IYou would think it's 2 different markets. But they're both coupes, and look at all the idiots on here that say a more powerful BRZ would cannibalize sales from the STI, which is a sedan.

All I really meant is (at least among the ones I know) Camaro buyers are not Corvette buyers and vice versa. Well, except maybe me, I'll take one of each please.

[Coaster]

. A mid-engine Corvette would likely coexist with the regular model but be priced at least $30,000 to $40,000 higher, my guess, about $130,000 to $150,000. A logical assumption would be 700 to 750 hp, massive torque, and decent fuel economy. GM won't do it unless it's a world-beater, so we should expect it to suck the doors off all the Europeans (Veyron excluded) and the Ford GT, which, while a nice car, would soon seem poor value. A possible Cadillac execution would have to exceed the Corvette and would be priced higher. I'm all for it, and I definitely "need" at least the Corvette.

- bob lutz, noted car exec

Looking forward to see how it compares to outer mid engines...

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Yes we can count. It is now twice. This thread is all speculation and I can speculate with the rest so I don't need to substantiate shit.


Your support for an inexpensive MR Corvette is that they made the fucking Fiero. That is just foolish logic.
Scale of production, massive development costs, the intended target market and a few other things I can't think of right now all will make the MR inherently more expensive. These things will be intended to compete in a market against Lambos and Ferraris and will not start at $55K. Now, if we want to say it will come in at the price of the top two levels I am with you.
We will see soon.

Watch your language old man. No need to get your depends in a bunch.

Guaranteed they will continue to make the current FR for a while because the C7 is still new (2014 launch). There is no arguing that. They will develop the MR for the top tier level. Not a Ford GT competitor, not $450k+; not at that level, but ZR1 replacement level or $150k+, yet there is no doubt that this will make its way eventually to the base trim. There is no reason for it not to, again, because there is no inherent reason why a Corvette can't be MR and be priced the same as the current base Corvette.

The evolution of each gen Corvette requires major investments. The MR would be no different.

Originally Posted by Dadhawk

I think you are confusing MR as the driving force here. They could absolutely build a MR car that cost no more than Chevy Spark if they wanted but from what I can see that is not the car they have configured here.

GM would have had to start with the low end as the target and build up from there. You can't build the high end and ratchet it down, at least not practically. To my untrained eye the swooping body and such on what we seen is expensive to build, a much more complex body than the C7 Vette.

That said, I'm hoping I'm wrong and you are right. I would buy a $55K MR Corvette tomorrow assuming I can get it without a 2x dealer add-on fee.

Technology always trickles down and gets cheaper. They will offer the MR on the top trim and eventually reduce it down as a standard for the C8. I don't know how well the C7 is being received, so maybe the C7 will have a shorter run than generations of the past.

They look dramatically different? The MR and FR C7 look closer in body complexity than the difference between the C6 and C7. I don't think this thing is Ford GT Supercar wild in body design at all.



https://www.motor1.com/news/134774/c...ne-spy-photos/

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by Coaster

- bob lutz, noted car exec

Looking forward to see how it compares to outer mid engines...

I disagree. They could improve the value and ability of the Corvette with the same engine and power configurations by going MR. The Corvette suffered with heat management compared to the Camaro with the same motor. The journalists had an idea that the Camaro had a larger opening in the front to channel more air to the radiators. The Corvette's slant nose didn't allow enough air.

Ford had an independent company assemble the Ford GT Supercar, and they designed it at $450k to be a track winner without needing massive power. I don't think the Corvette is in the same league, no matter what power they try to throw at it. And I see no reason to make a Ford GT equivalent, but call it a Corvette, yet not have any other Corvette models match its design. That would be like Ford calling the Ford GT40 or GT Supercar the GT Mustang Supercar. I don't see any reason why Chevy would make a low production, limited edition, MR Corvette. They could, and I would be amazed.

The Corvette has always been a great value for what you get. I think they could make a MR version that is still great value. If they do, watch out Cayman/911 owners.

One more point, the Acura NSX with its multiple hybrid engines, and long development costs, still starts at $156k. Couldn't you see Chevy, not a luxury brand, who doesn't have a history of hybrid performance drivetrains, drop a current C7 engine in an MR chassis and undercut the NSX in price?

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

They look dramatically different? The MR and FR C7 look closer in body complexity than the difference between the C6 and C7. I don't think this thing is Ford GT Supercar wild in body design at all.

Don't believe I said they looked dramatically different, only that to me the MR looked more complex. I could be wrong, my only point, in partial agreement with you, is that the MR configuration may not drive the price up but there are other aspects of the car that could, at least to above the C7 price range. It could be that difference is artificial, or driven by simpler things such as cosmetic trim items, or it could just be that GM decides that the MR cup holder should cost $5,000. I doubt that, and I do think the car will be a great value as that is it's legacy. Just not sure it will eliminate the FR car, at least in the short term.

I'd hate to see the FR go, because in reality an MR Corvette really isn't a Corvette, it's something else, just as the "new" Supra really isn't a Supra, except in a marketing sense.

[Yoshoobaroo]

Originally Posted by Dadhawk

because in reality an MR Corvette really isn't a Corvette

Just like it wouldn't be a Corvette without a V8, am I right?

[Coaster]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

I disagree. They could improve the value and ability of the Corvette with the same engine and power configurations by going MR. The Corvette suffered with heat management compared to the Camaro with the same motor. The journalists had an idea that the Camaro had a larger opening in the front to channel more air to the radiators. The Corvette's slant nose didn't allow enough air.

Ford had an independent company assemble the Ford GT Supercar, and they designed it at $450k to be a track winner without needing massive power. I don't think the Corvette is in the same league, no matter what power they try to throw at it. And I see no reason to make a Ford GT equivalent, but call it a Corvette, yet not have any other Corvette models match its design. That would be like Ford calling the Ford GT40 or GT Supercar the GT Mustang Supercar. I don't see any reason why Chevy would make a low production, limited edition, MR Corvette. They could, and I would be amazed.

The Corvette has always been a great value for what you get. I think they could make a MR version that is still great value. If they do, watch out Cayman/911 owners.

One more point, the Acura NSX with its multiple hybrid engines, and long development costs, still starts at $156k. Couldn't you see Chevy, not a luxury brand, who doesn't have a history of hybrid performance drivetrains, drop a current C7 engine in an MR chassis and undercut the NSX in price?

Costs of an MR build way more than FR for GM.

Around 2005, GM started having budget problems, so the mid-engine project got deferred; by 2007 or 2008, it was obvious that we were not going to have the money. A whole bunch of stuff got canceled. Impala was delayed. XLR was canceled. Camaro convertible was delayed. The CTS was delayed. For the C7, the Corvette team didn't get $900 million. Instead, it got the nominal sum of $250 million and "do the best you can." There's no way we were going to get a production-volume mid-engine car for $250 million.

(Bob Lutz)

Still would be a value compared to the big three Euro super cars.
Also the c7 was intended to be an MR but financial meltdown ended that.



https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-car...gine-corvette/

[krayzie]

This is the Fiero revenge on the Corvette.