Base Cayman vs BRZ

[nikitopo]

@mkodama: Maybe I can help you a bit about the 24h car ...




In fact on rainy conditions the particular car can outperform almost everything on the track, but in such situations the organizers usually stop the race. They don't want to have too many accidents or stopped cars.

[Turbowned]

Subaru does not make the best engines compared to their Japanese brethren, let's be honest with ourselves. They're pretty hit-or-miss. If I had a nickel for every shortblock I saw replaced during my 2 years in sales at Subaru or my 2 years as a service manager with Firestone... well I'd probably have a couple bucks at least. Not to say Porsche is perfect but apart from the very small IMS failure rate (which I bit the bullet and spent two grand replacing as PM), I haven't heard of any other issues.

[Deep Six]

Originally Posted by Pat

Spending a little time at any track will highlight how unreliable Subaru engines are. Each of the last couple events I've been at a Subaru engine failed. I've seen a few before those, too. I can't remember seeing engines from any other manufacturer fail as often on the track.

That is absolutely my experience as well including my original and built motor which had a valvetrain failure at Sebring that wreaked havoc on the bottom end. The ratio of participation to issues comparing Porsche against Subaru is ugly for the Japanese manufacturer. Just my observation of course but it's based on maybe a hundred or so track days. When I get around to it I'm swapping in an LS but right now I'm starting something different with another underdog brand.

[Tcoat]

Porsches are expensive race cars pretending to be street cars.
Subaru's are cheap street cars pretending to be race cars.
Which of those engines should stand up better when pushed to the limits?




"Expensive" and "Cheap" being subjective of course.

[Yoshoobaroo]

Originally Posted by Pat

Spending a little time at any track will highlight how unreliable Subaru engines are. Each of the last couple events I've been at a Subaru engine failed. I've seen a few before those, too. I can't remember seeing engines from any other manufacturer fail as often on the track.

Not sure how fair that comparison is, since 95% of Subaru motors at a track event are modified to a certain degree, and virtually all Porsches at similar events are bone stock.

[Lynxis]

A lot of the guys blowing Subaru engines at the track have 150k+ miles on the odo. Most Porsche's don't see that number of miles in their lifetime, much less ones taken to the track. It's one thing for me to pound my 50k mile BRZ around the track and autocross course, relatively worry free but lets see how I feel about that when I hit 150k miles.

[Yoshoobaroo]

Originally Posted by Lynxis

A lot of the guys blowing Subaru engines at the track have 150k+ miles on the odo

and modified.

Most Porsche's don't see that number of miles in their lifetime, much less ones taken to the track. It's one thing for me to pound my 50k mile BRZ around the track and autocross course, relatively worry free but lets see how I feel about that when I hit 150k miles.

If my engine lets go north of 150k with that kind of abuse I wouldn't hesitate to replace it with the same one.

[WolfpackS2k]

^I'm planning to start attending HPDEs with my GSR. 330,000 miles on the engine, which has never had any work done to it. Of all the things that I'm concerned with and need attention before I can hit the track, the engine itself is last on the list.

[nikitopo]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Porsches are expensive race cars pretending to be street cars.
Subaru's are cheap street cars pretending to be race cars.

Subaru is not pretending anything. They have their own racing history and it is just the mindset different and not to focus so much on the looks. The mileage the majority of Subarus have, a Porsche will never see in its life. The only thing about Subarus is that they are much easier to modify and in some cases it can be the root cause of different issues. On the other hand Porsche does not equipe their base cars even with a LSD and it is supposed to be a performance brand. So, who pretends what?

Apart from the above, I always had German cars before switching to Subaru. I had constantly issues after some period, including a problem with a Porsche car. After the switch I never had issues again. So, no one can convince me the opposite.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by nikitopo

Subaru is not pretending anything. They have their own racing history and it is just the mindset different and not to focus so much on the looks. The mileage the majority of Subarus have, a Porsche will never see in its life. The only thing about Subarus is that they are much easier to modify and in some cases it can be the root cause of different issues. On the other hand Porsche does not equipe their base cars even with a LSD and it is supposed to be a performance brand. So, who pretends what?

Apart from the above, I always had German cars before switching to Subaru. I had constantly issues after some period, including a problem with a Porsche car. After the switch I never had issues again. So, no one can convince me the opposite.

I was referring to straight stock.

[WolfpackS2k]

Originally Posted by nikitopo

Subaru is not pretending anything. They have their own racing history and it is just the mindset different and not to focus so much on the looks. The mileage the majority of Subarus have, a Porsche will never see in its life. The only thing about Subarus is that they are much easier to modify and in some cases it can be the root cause of different issues. On the other hand Porsche does not equipe their base cars even with a LSD and it is supposed to be a performance brand. So, who pretends what?

Apart from the above, I always had German cars before switching to Subaru. I had constantly issues after some period, including a problem with a Porsche car. After the switch I never had issues again. So, no one can convince me the opposite.

There are plenty of people with over 200,000 miles on their Caymans. 911s as well (I'm sure), but I don't frequent 911 message forums. I'm over 100,000 miles on mine and am not the slightest bit nervous about that.

As to your example of Porsche not giving it's cars LSDs...guess what, most of them don't really need it! When the engine is mounted above or behind the drive wheels all that weight ensures the right tires have plenty of grip. (of course this statement doesn't apply to FWD because under acceleration weight transfers off those wheels). Lotus doesn't equip it's Elise with an LSD. Wouldn't surprise me if the Alfa 4C doesn't have one either. You don't really need an LSD unless you're making silly amounts of power.

The newer (than my Porsche) 981 has the option of an active LSD to improve it's handling, but this is partially done to help "shrink" the size of the car since it's longer and has a bigger wheelbase than the 987 that preceded it.

In fact the rear of my car has so much grip that when driven in cold weather at parking lot speeds, any extreme steering angle results in the front tires skipping/slipping on the pavement surface a bit. It's a strange characteristic inherent to all 987s and 981s (and probably others as well).

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

There are plenty of people with over 200,000 miles on their Caymans. 911s as well (I'm sure), but I don't frequent 911 message forums. I'm over 100,000 miles on mine and am not the slightest bit nervous about that.

As to your example of Porsche not giving it's cars LSDs...guess what, most of them don't really need it! When the engine is mounted above or behind the drive wheels all that weight ensures the right tires have plenty of grip. (of course this statement doesn't apply to FWD because under acceleration weight transfers off those wheels). Lotus doesn't equip it's Elise with an LSD. Wouldn't surprise me if the Alfa 4C doesn't have one either. You don't really need an LSD unless you're making silly amounts of power.

The newer (than my Porsche) 981 has the option of an active LSD to improve it's handling, but this is partially done to help "shrink" the size of the car since it's longer and has a bigger wheelbase than the 987 that preceded it.

In fact the rear of my car has so much grip that when driven in cold weather at parking lot speeds, any extreme steering angle results in the front tires skipping/slipping on the pavement surface a bit. It's a strange characteristic inherent to all 987s and 981s (and probably others as well).

Yep. The internet can be a blessing for information or a horror story that builds out of nothing.
Anybody reading this forum would be positive all the crank bearings are going to spin. When I was on the DSM forum it appeared that every car would develop crank walk. In the Porsche example people are convinced they will all blow up as soon as warranty expires. None of any of those are true of course but since people only hear about the issues they forget (or ignore?) that these examples are a very tiny minority of the cars.
If there is indeed an issue with the majority of any car there will be a recall (i.e. the 2014 911 GT3 or the Focus RS).
Back in the day before the internet people were not nearly as worried about failures since you didn't hear about every single one and only found out if it impacted the majority of cars.

[mkodama]

Originally Posted by nikitopo

@mkodama: Maybe I can help you a bit about the 24h car ...

[IMG]http://i68.tinypic.com/2mnhawz.gif[/IMG


In fact on rainy conditions the particular car can outperform almost everything on the track, but in such situations the organizers usually stop the race. They don't want to have too many accidents or stopped cars.

Where’s the BRZ? Those are all WRX.

[nikitopo]

You were questioning about the 24h Nürburgring promotional race car. The BRZ was never promoted officially at the Nürburgring. Additionally, the discussion went at some point between the differences of the base Porsche cars and the Subaru performance cars.