Official: Toyota FT-1 Concept / First New Supra Prototype Spotted!

[Shark_Bait88]

For every speculating that this spells the death of the 86...

These are going to be different cars. Per another R&T article posted today, "Tada added that it'd be 'more serious' than the drift-happy 86."

The specs are significantly different and it seems the car will come with an AT only. The model structure makes sense too:

- 86
- Supra4
- Supra6

Everything about price is totally speculative at this point, but my best guess would be the Supra4 coming in around the mid $30k mark and the Supra6 starting around the mid $40k mark. That'd leave plenty of room between all three models for sales. (Again, this is based off of pretty much nothing but speculation)

[rvoll]

Originally Posted by NARFALICIOUS

The article says this is a recently discovered document from a Transmission manufacturer (unconfirmed), not from BMW or Toyota. So assuming it's legit, it doesn't insinuate that the 86 platform will be replaced. The only thing we can guess, if you want to play the rumor mill here, is that the Transmission manufacturer will/want to provide Toyota with a transmission that works for both Supra and 86 4 cylinders.
Again, all guesses from an unconfirmed article.

So let me get this straight. A leaked printed specification document is a fraud because the company it was leaked from will not confirm it? The use of the term "GT86" was a misprint and doesn't mean a thing. ZF will provide the transmission to the Toyota but not the BRZ which is made on the same line. The head designer of both the 86 and Supra doesn't know what's going on with his car. Why the creator of the 86 would want the next incarnation of his sports car to be designated the FT86 is beyond me.....

[Shark_Bait88]

Originally Posted by rvoll

So let me get this straight. A leaked printed specification document is a fraud because the company it was leaked from will not confirm it? The use of the term "GT86" was a misprint and doesn't mean a thing. ZF will provide the transmission to the Toyota but not the BRZ which is made on the same line. The head designer of both the 86 and Supra doesn't know what's going on with his car. Why the creator of the 86 would want the next incarnation of his sports car to be designated the FT86 is beyond me.....

You are wildly speculating, even the title of your post shows it's a poorly thought through idea.

I can promise you that in the automotive manufacturing/supplier world words and designations can get somewhat lost in translation, especially when dealing with suppliers in foreign countries.

I think you're reading more into the GT86 designation and its relationship to the 86 than you should be. I'm not saying it doesn't indicate the possibility of two models though. Perhaps it means the 4cyl Supra will be a surprise new Celica? But I absolutely don't think it means it's the replacement for the 86.

[rvoll]

Originally Posted by Shark_Bait88

For every speculating that this spells the death of the 86...

These are going to be different cars. Per another R&T article posted today, "Tada added that it'd be 'more serious' than the drift-happy 86."

The specs are significantly different and it seems the car will come with an AT only. The model structure makes sense too:

- 86
- Supra4
- Supra6

Everything about price is totally speculative at this point, but my best guess would be the Supra4 coming in around the mid $30k mark and the Supra6 starting around the mid $40k mark. That'd leave plenty of room between all three models for sales. (Again, this is based off of pretty much nothing but speculation)

Yes, the replacement will be more serious -- it will be the Supra 4. There just isn't enough volume to justify 3 low volume sports cars. Look how the 86 volume has dropped these past few years and Toyota is not supporting it at all. Is it possible? Certainly. Does it make sense? No.

And here I just started this thread because I thought the use of FT86 in an internal document was interesting. You cannot be logical and come to any other conclusion except that all of the data so far indicates that Toyota will probably drop the 86. Given all of the data points so far, I'd say it is probably 80% probable that this will happen. But that still means 20% chance it will not. Nothing in this information says anything about the BRZ and there is not enough information available to even guess whether it will continue to exist or not. It's a great car -- I hope it does continue. But who knows....

[rvoll]

Originally Posted by Shark_Bait88

You are wildly speculating, even the title of your post shows it's a poorly thought through idea.

I can promise you that in the automotive manufacturing/supplier world words and designations can get somewhat lost in translation, especially when dealing with suppliers in foreign countries.

I think you're reading more into the GT86 designation and its relationship to the 86 than you should be. I'm not saying it doesn't indicate the possibility of two models though. Perhaps it means the 4cyl Supra will be a surprise new Celica? But I absolutely don't think it means it's the replacement for the 86.

Really? I'm not proposing it, only that I thought it was interesting and that the logic supporting it was interesting. Do you have any specific examples of leaked internal documents with misprinted main car designations? You promised that this happens, so I'm sure you can show us other examples.

Now if Toyota discontinues the 86 when the Supra is introduced, does that mean the Supra was the replacement for the 86 or just another model introduced? Take a look at the 2018 86 sales data and then tell me you really believe it will continue to exist...

http://carsalesbase.com/us-car-sales...on/scion-fr-s/

[Shark_Bait88]

Originally Posted by rvoll

Yes, the replacement will be more serious -- it will be the Supra 4. There just isn't enough volume to justify 3 low volume sports cars. Look how the 86 volume has dropped these past few years and Toyota is not supporting it at all. Is it possible? Certainly. Does it make sense? No.

And here I just started this thread because I thought the use of FT86 in an internal document was interesting. You cannot be logical and come to any other conclusion except that all of the data so far indicates that Toyota will probably drop the 86. Given all of the data points so far, I'd say it is probably 80% probable that this will happen. But that still means 20% chance it will not. Nothing in this information says anything about the BRZ and there is not enough information available to even guess whether it will continue to exist or not. It's a great car -- I hope it does continue. But who knows....

Originally Posted by rvoll

Really? I'm not proposing it, only that I thought it was interesting and that the logic supporting it was interesting. Do you have any specific examples of leaked internal documents with misprinted main car designations? You promised that this happens, so I'm sure you can show us other examples.

Now if Toyota discontinues the 86 when the Supra is introduced, does that mean the Supra was the replacement for the 86 or just another model introduced? Take a look at the 2018 86 sales data and then tell me you really believe it will continue to exist...

http://carsalesbase.com/us-car-sales...on/scion-fr-s/

But it doesn't. The Supra4 will certainly not be in the same price bracket as the 86.

Toyota has been saying for years that they want to return to a 3 model sports car lineup. So how does this not fit that? It's far more likely that the use of GT86, by a company that isn't actually the automotive supplier, is a misuse or different use of the designation internally within that company.

The 86 also hasn't sold poorly, just check its sales figures against similar cars like the Miata and S2000. All sports cars diminish in sales over time, and then pick back up when there's a new generation. In the first 4 years it outsold the entire production run of the S2000, but Honda made two generations of that car. It's pretty much outsold or at least matched each generation of the Miata too. It's far more likely that we will see a new generation of the 86/BRZ with the FA24 in the next few years.

And, no, I can't provide you with documentation where designations get misused or there are errors in translation, because those are confidential materials and that could get me fired. I'm just saying that I have experience in the automotive supplier world with an international company and can tell you first hand that the waters can get muddied when you're dealing with different countries/regions where people speak different languages and cars have different names.

[nikitopo]

@rvoll: Just to let you know, shark_bait88 works for ZF. The same holds for Tcoat who has not posted anything yet. I wouldn't like being in their position now. It is not sure if this document is a leak or not, but for sure their company will have to explain to Toyota what happened here. All this information should stay confidential and it looks that something went wrong ...

[rvoll]

Originally Posted by Shark_Bait88

But it doesn't. The Supra4 will certainly not be in the same price bracket as the 86.

Toyota has been saying for years that they want to return to a 3 model sports car lineup. So how does this not fit that? It's far more likely that the use of GT86, by a company that isn't actually the automotive supplier, is a misuse or different use of the designation internally within that company.

The 86 also hasn't sold poorly, just check its sales figures against similar cars like the Miata and S2000. All sports cars diminish in sales over time, and then pick back up when there's a new generation. In the first 4 years it outsold the entire production run of the S2000, but Honda made two generations of that car. It's pretty much outsold or at least matched each generation of the Miata too. It's far more likely that we will see a new generation of the 86/BRZ with the FA24 in the next few years.

And, no, I can't provide you with documentation where designations get misused or there are errors in translation, because those are confidential materials and that could get me fired. I'm just saying that I have experience in the automotive supplier world with an international company and can tell you first hand that the waters can get muddied when you're dealing with different countries/regions where people speak different languages and cars have different names.

With sales so low, why does the new Supra 4 have to be in the same price bracket. Obviously, there no money to be made in that price bracket. If you want to see an example of what new generations do to a sports car brand, take a look at the MX-5. You'll see that the sales rises the first year of introduction, but then settles back down. Given introductory promotions, generally the first year is not profitable even with added volume. So I don't buy your argument that there will be a large, sustained increase in volume over the first few years. It's a nice cop-out to say you can't give examples. If this were a common occurence I'm sure you'd find somewhere you wouldn't get fired.... And this is an example of a major supplier of transmissions, not a small local parts supplier.

[rvoll]

Originally Posted by nikitopo

@rvoll: Just to let you know, shark_bait88 works for ZF. The same holds for Tcoat who has not posted anything yet. I wouldn't like being in their position now. It is not sure if this document is a leak or not, but for sure their company will have to explain to Toyota what happened here. All this information should stay confidential and it looks that something went wrong ...

Good to know.... So we don't know for sure whether he's arguing generally or trying to quell a leaked internal document so the damage will be minimalized. Normally, if he works for the company, he should stay out of the discussion because involvement only makes it worse. If he says anything that supports the document, he is a leaker and if he argues against it, he only increases the perception that it is true.

[RToyo86]

I can't see the supra replacing the 86.

Having a entry level car like the 86 is smart. A light nimble 4 cylinder sports car, at a reasonable cost.
Followed by offering a more refined car like the supra with a Entry level model, and a premium option for those who want the extra grunt. It gives the supra more flexibility to sell in a larger market. Maybe not a four cylinder but a non-turbo inline six base model would do the trick too.

Toyota could spin the 86 as being a more track/enthusiasts model and the supra as the more refined mature sports car. That could allow toyota/subaru to boost the power of the 86 without giving the supra a identity crisis in base form.

Darn it toyota... how long are you going to make us wait.

[Shark_Bait88]

Lol I work for a totally different part of the company, and have no more knowledge about the incident than any of you. I also never said that my experiences discussed above did or didn't happened at ZF. I have nothing to defend, so that is a moot point. My point about not reading too much into a designation isn't to say that errors are common at major companies like that, but rather that in a major international organization when you're dealing with departments in different countries and markets not everything directly correlates to all other markets and situations. If you don't have experience within an international organization, where you routinely communicate with officers overseas, I don't expect you're going to understand what my point is, and it's not worth my time to try convincing you.

As for the sales numbers, have you actually looked at the sales figures for the FR-S/86/BRZ and compared them to cars like the S2000 and MX-5 across multiple generations? Because I have, and I can tell you that they paint a different picture than many internet commenters and some journalists might have you believe.

[dtbdan]

Originally Posted by rvoll

Just saw an article by Road and Track that indicated the new Toyota Supra will come out also in a smaller, lighter, better handling, 4 cylinder version internally known as the GT86. It will have a BMW 4cyl turbo engine and a ZF transmission. If this is the new GT86, the current Subaru version will be dropped. Why else name it "GT86"? Given what we've heard about pricing on the 6 cylinder version, I expect the pricing on this to be in the mid to high 30's with higher end trims in the mid-40's.

https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-car...ws&date=071718

Why is it that every thread with even a hint of connection to whether or not the twins are going to continue, you're there prophecizing that they're dead in the water and the writings on the wall and we have to be idiots not to see it?

[strat61caster]

Gee what a surprise...

No way in hell a $35k 86 with 240 hp is going to steal sales from a $50k GT car

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by nikitopo

@rvoll: Just to let you know, shark_bait88 works for ZF. The same holds for Tcoat who has not posted anything yet. I wouldn't like being in their position now. It is not sure if this document is a leak or not, but for sure their company will have to explain to Toyota what happened here. All this information should stay confidential and it looks that something went wrong ...

Yep. And that document is totally meaningless. Even R&T call it a "transmission catalog". It is not in any know ZF format so probably isn't even an official document.
Toyota would be worried about this when there are thousands of click bait articles citing an "undisclosed Toyota insider".
To take that and run with it like Trvoll does is simply foolish and totally his normal style.
Oh and say hi to your mother for me. No doubt she will be glad to hear from you.