20mm Spacers didn't work for me

[wparsons]

Originally Posted by rvoll

I've already done it and I'm not doing it again. Besides, it sounds like you wouldn't believe it anyway. So, are you trying to justify your spacers? I suppose you are also the type that thinks you have better ride quality with lowering springs or coilovers. It's in your head.....

No spacers on my car, but good job making bad assumptions.

As for ride quality and coilovers... go for a ride in a car with GOOD quality street coilovers (Ohlins, etc) and try to make the same statement. Damper quality goes a LONG way for ride quality so does the damper being properly matched to the spring rate, and the stock ones just aren't that great of a match to the stock spring rates (especially 2013 and 2014 cars).

[rvoll]

Originally Posted by wparsons

As for ride quality and coilovers... go for a ride in a car with GOOD quality street coilovers (Ohlins, etc) and try to make the same statement. Damper quality goes a LONG way for ride quality so does the damper being properly matched to the spring rate, and the stock ones just aren't that great of a match to the stock spring rates (especially 2013 and 2014 cars).

Are you really saying that you can compensate for higher spring rates and less travel with any coilover? Really? Do you also have a perpetual motion machine? There are laws of physics, you know....

I have a 2018 and haven't experienced any early models. If you go to coilovers, you probably want a harsher ride and tell your mind it is better. Many of you actually like a harsher ride and that is perfectly fine -- it's your butt. I understand it makes you think you are in a race car. I also understand that in a track car, you want higher spring rates, lowering, sway bars, to get better lap times. But you will have lousy ride quality. The truth is that any mod will have both positive and negative effects. You may like a stiffer ride psychologically, but it is still a degradation of ride quality.

And I thought this thread was over...... Oh, well.....

[ermax]

Is it just me or does rvoll need to calm down his constant condescending tone? For sure higher rates will be more harsh but combo that with bad dampers and it's going to be even worse. It is also possible to keep the OEM rates and free lengths (although I doubt many people would) and still have coilovers with better than OEM shocks and end up with better than OEM ride quality. I understand what you are getting at but your tone is way to combative and condescending.

[wparsons]

Originally Posted by rvoll

Are you really saying that you can compensate for higher spring rates and less travel with any coilover? Really? Do you also have a perpetual motion machine? There are laws of physics, you know....

I have a 2018 and haven't experienced any early models. If you go to coilovers, you probably want a harsher ride and tell your mind it is better. Many of you actually like a harsher ride and that is perfectly fine -- it's your butt. I understand it makes you think you are in a race car. I also understand that in a track car, you want higher spring rates, lowering, sway bars, to get better lap times. But you will have lousy ride quality. The truth is that any mod will have both positive and negative effects. You may like a stiffer ride psychologically, but it is still a degradation of ride quality.

And I thought this thread was over...... Oh, well.....

Annnnd, you just lost any credibility.

Where did I say ANY coilover? I mentioned very specific ones. Go for a ride in a car with Ohlins and have your mind blown.

Might also be a shock to you, but with coilovers you can actually get MORE bump travel at a lower ride height. Might be another shock, but you can get coilovers that aren't 8k+ spring rates.

My KW V3's absolutely ride better than the stock shocks did with lowering springs (swift sport), and it's more composed as well. I haven't driven an early car on stock springs in a long time, but it's definitely more firm than stock.

Stock shocks have to fit many requirements, including cost. Spend $3k on some dampers and you can do way better than what the OEM cost could handle. Coming from the Porsche world has probably skewed your perception of the world a bit, those cars are a different price point and can be spec'd with much higher quality hardware.

It is very possible to improve these cars without downsides (except $$$), you just have to be conscious of what you're doing and why. A $25k sports car has a number of compromises from the factory that can be addressed if cost isn't an issue.

[BasementN3k0]

Originally Posted by rvoll

Are you really saying that you can compensate for higher spring rates and less travel with any coilover? Really? Do you also have a perpetual motion machine? There are laws of physics, you know....

I have a 2018 and haven't experienced any early models. If you go to coilovers, you probably want a harsher ride and tell your mind it is better. Many of you actually like a harsher ride and that is perfectly fine -- it's your butt. I understand it makes you think you are in a race car. I also understand that in a track car, you want higher spring rates, lowering, sway bars, to get better lap times. But you will have lousy ride quality. The truth is that any mod will have both positive and negative effects. You may like a stiffer ride psychologically, but it is still a degradation of ride quality.

And I thought this thread was over...... Oh, well.....

[ZDan]

13/11 kg/mm Ohlins DFVs on my FD are way smooover over bumps/potholes than the quite good stock suspension on my S2000 with ~1/3 the spring stiffness. There's a difference between "firm" and "harsh".

It fricking amazes me that this thread even exists. Who looks at a stock FT86 and thinks the front wheels/tires look fine in the wheelwells, but that the rears need to be shoved outward 20mm?! Very strange...

[AFRichZC6]

Spacers adjust wheel offset, which is obvious, but it also affects track width. Track width is a variable in roll rate (rate of weight transfer), and if track width is increased, given that the center of gravity and sprung weight aren't changed, roll rate will decrease. Some people use spacers as a tuning element to easily adjust track width at either the front or rear to change the car's balance in autocross.

Wider rear track is more stable (more likely to understeer), generally speaking. Our cars with stock 17x7 +48 wheels has a track width of 1510mm in front and 1540mm in rear. A 30mm difference between front to rear.

Just some food for thought (without getting into Ackermann).

[rvoll]

Originally Posted by wparsons

Annnnd, you just lost any credibility.

Where did I say ANY coilover? I mentioned very specific ones. Go for a ride in a car with Ohlins and have your mind blown.

Might also be a shock to you, but with coilovers you can actually get MORE bump travel at a lower ride height. Might be another shock, but you can get coilovers that aren't 8k+ spring rates.

My KW V3's absolutely ride better than the stock shocks did with lowering springs (swift sport), and it's more composed as well. I haven't driven an early car on stock springs in a long time, but it's definitely more firm than stock.

Stock shocks have to fit many requirements, including cost. Spend $3k on some dampers and you can do way better than what the OEM cost could handle. Coming from the Porsche world has probably skewed your perception of the world a bit, those cars are a different price point and can be spec'd with much higher quality hardware.

It is very possible to improve these cars without downsides (except $$$), you just have to be conscious of what you're doing and why. A $25k sports car has a number of compromises from the factory that can be addressed if cost isn't an issue.

As I've stated before, I am NOT an expert on BRZ suspensions. I know Ohlins are good, but any review I've read did not say they gave better ride quality than a stock 2018 BRZ. They are known for greater travel and a softer ride than other coilovers, but I cannot speak from experience. Here are some posts by someone who is, in my opinion, one of the most knowledgeable people on this forum......

https://www.ft86club.com/forums/show...5&postcount=12

https://www.ft86club.com/forums/show...8&postcount=14

I've seen dozens of reviews on Ohlins by those, on other cars, have used several suspensions, and while they almost universally say they give better ride quality than other coilovers, none of them say they give the best ride quality over stock. So, given what others have said, you've lost all credibility and objectivity on this subject. The fact is that most people who do coilovers WANT a stiffer, more racing type suspension. I have not seen anyone who has changed from stock to get better ride quality. If this is all about you trying to justify your purchase of Ohlins, and being defensive thereto, I understand.... From everything I've seen, Ohlin makes top notch, superb, coilovers that do a great job of trying to balance performance with ride quality. You made a great choice. But your objective was NOT getting the best ride quality.

[Ultramaroon]

Originally Posted by rvoll

As I've stated before, I am NOT an expert on BRZ suspensions.

I'm surprised that no one has mentioned this platform's sensitivity to sidewall stiffness. Fatter cars are more numb to it.

IMHO, best bang for buck to reduce harshness is in tire choice. The stock tires are chosen partly for their stiff sidewalls. I have driven other owners' cars shod with stickier tires and, even with the dramatically increased traction, I immediately missed the nimble feeling I get from my stock tires.

[AFRichZC6]

Originally Posted by Ultramaroon

I'm surprised that no one has mentioned this platform's sensitivity to sidewall stiffness. Fatter cars are more numb to it.

IMHO, best bang for buck to reduce harshness is in tire choice. The stock tires are chosen partly for their stiff sidewalls. I have driven other owners' cars shod with stickier tires and, even with the dramatically increased traction, I immediately missed the nimble feeling I get from my stock tires.

That's interesting because I feel the stock Michelin Primacy are on the softer end of the scale on sidewall stiffness. On a more firmly sprung setup, the tires almost feel like undamped springs. When I switched to a tire with stiffer sidewall, I thought it actually got more comfortable since the car wasn't oscillating nearly as much over dips in the road.

I do get what you mean about the nimble feeling of the stock tires, but I think that comes from their narrow size or maybe because they have low rolling resistance

Ride comfort can be a pretty subjective thing.

[Ultramaroon]

Originally Posted by AFRichZC6

That's interesting because I feel the stock Michelin Primacy are on the softer end of the scale on sidewall stiffness. On a more firmly sprung setup, the tires almost feel like undamped springs. When I switched to a tire with stiffer sidewall, I thought it actually got more comfortable since the car wasn't oscillating nearly as much over dips in the road.

I do get what you mean about the nimble feeling of the stock tires, but I think that comes from their narrow size or maybe because they have low rolling resistance

Ride comfort can be a pretty subjective thing.

Which tires are you comparing to the stocks?

Can you describe the changes you made to damping & spring rates?

[rvoll]

Originally Posted by AFRichZC6

That's interesting because I feel the stock Michelin Primacy are on the softer end of the scale on sidewall stiffness. On a more firmly sprung setup, the tires almost feel like undamped springs. When I switched to a tire with stiffer sidewall, I thought it actually got more comfortable since the car wasn't oscillating nearly as much over dips in the road.

I do get what you mean about the nimble feeling of the stock tires, but I think that comes from their narrow size or maybe because they have low rolling resistance

Ride comfort can be a pretty subjective thing.

Agree with your comment on ride comfort being subjective. However, most reviewers would say it is how well the car isolated itself from the road, i.e., no stiff bumps, some level of softness but not bouncy, etc. If you think about cars with the greatest "ride quality", it would be large Cadillacs or Mercedes. It is also related to the comfort of the seats. This is as opposed to handling quality. A lot of people here might disagree with that definition, but we are sports car owners and sports cars are not known for ride quality.

Regarding the Primacies. I just replaced my Primacies with PS4S tires on a new 2018. I found practically no difference in terms of softness. However, the stickier nature of the PS4S changed how the car handles while cornering. The Primacies seem more "playful" while the PS4S are harder to break while turning. I prefer the more planted feel, but I hear some like to throw the car around. I stayed with 17's because of ride quality. There is a large difference in ride quality moving to 18's even on factory setups. I would say ride quality really suffers when you move to 18's, even with better dampers.

[wparsons]

Originally Posted by rvoll

As I've stated before, I am NOT an expert on BRZ suspensions. I know Ohlins are good, but any review I've read did not say they gave better ride quality than a stock 2018 BRZ. They are known for greater travel and a softer ride than other coilovers, but I cannot speak from experience. Here are some posts by someone who is, in my opinion, one of the most knowledgeable people on this forum......

https://www.ft86club.com/forums/show...5&postcount=12

https://www.ft86club.com/forums/show...8&postcount=14

I've seen dozens of reviews on Ohlins by those, on other cars, have used several suspensions, and while they almost universally say they give better ride quality than other coilovers, none of them say they give the best ride quality over stock. So, given what others have said, you've lost all credibility and objectivity on this subject. The fact is that most people who do coilovers WANT a stiffer, more racing type suspension. I have not seen anyone who has changed from stock to get better ride quality. If this is all about you trying to justify your purchase of Ohlins, and being defensive thereto, I understand.... From everything I've seen, Ohlin makes top notch, superb, coilovers that do a great job of trying to balance performance with ride quality. You made a great choice. But your objective was NOT getting the best ride quality.

Might want to re-read a few of the things you're quoting... I don't have Ohlins, I have KW V3's, which was pretty clearly stated.


I've ridden back to back in a car with Ohlins (later model, softer rates) vs stock suspension (2014), and the ride quality is most definitely better with the Ohlins. Small bumps feel similar and it's more composed over the really harsh stuff.

[rvoll]

Originally Posted by wparsons

Might want to re-read a few of the things you're quoting... I don't have Ohlins, I have KW V3's, which was pretty clearly stated.


I've ridden back to back in a car with Ohlins (later model, softer rates) vs stock suspension (2014), and the ride quality is most definitely better with the Ohlins. Small bumps feel similar and it's more composed over the really harsh stuff.

They changed the suspension in 2017 and the ride was much better than in 2016. I never rode in a stock 2014. I can also tell you the ride quality in a 2018 with performance package is much worse than stock. When we test drove the one with performance package, my wife complained about how rough it was. But when we were in one without the PP, it was much better. I don't doubt that the 86's in the beginning didn't have well tuned suspensions and the Ohlins were probably much better. But please don't apply that anomaly to the basic dynamics of ride quality. Longer travel and lower spring rates plus higher profile tires do create a better ride quality. And if decent dampers were in the early versions of the 86 as they are in the 2017+, you wouldn't have than anomaly to quote.

You can go for great ride quality or great for track, but you can't go for both. And although I haven't personally experience that phenomena in an 86, I sure have experienced it in other cars. If you go with GM, or Ford, or any other major manufacturer, you won't get a stock car that doesn't have decent ride quality in their main lines. Even an MX-5 has better ride quality than our car -- but it has more body roll as well. Personally, I was willing to give up a little ride quality for the handling of our car. But for me, even the move to the PP was giving up too much.