getting new wheels. staggered or not??

[churchx]

1) there is little difference in result, be spacing out wheels via spacers or via different wheel offset. Both routes can work, both will have similar results/effects. Properly installed hub centering spacers are safe enough and may let one save if one already has certain wheels and changing them out to ones with right offset is not an option in budget. Or if wheels of certain design are available only in offsets, that space out wheels insufficient to get them flush.
2) among ill-effects of spacing out too much might be: heavier steering and more tendency to follow road defects due change of scrub radius, and lesser life of wheel bearings due more load on them from spaced out wheels, thus "pushing" on bearings with lever of longer length.
3) but if one has already bought & installed wide body kit, it's obvious, that getting certain looks change takes priority over everything else, so one should be willing to live with/pay for ill-effects, and certainly car with widebody AND tucked in wheels much more so then in stock car will look butt ugly in eyes of everybody. Just stomach it and space out wheels to get them flush again with whichever spacing out method you choose but now to width of widebody arches.

[vwu]

Originally Posted by churchx

Or if wheels of certain design are available only in offsets, that space out wheels insufficient to get them flush.

thanks! so, what are the options as far as wheels if you dont want to use spacers. whats a good offset number to make it flush? or are you saying there arent any wheels that will make flush?

[churchx]

check threads of specific wide body kits (which more then probably may differ between them, as to how wide they are). I'm sure there should be already mentioned existing wheel setups or there you'll see other people with that kit, that are best targets to ask. What size/offset wheels, what thickness spacers. If you have less spaced out with wheel's offset, do that with thicker spacer, simple as that. Wheel directory's opening posts list "ideal flush-ness" offsets only for twins w/o widebody kits installed. BTW, if flushness matters that much, instead of just generic getting into ballpark, then pay notice also to mentions of what lowering / alignment / camber they have, as that also may change a bit how much eg. if wheel-tire's top is more or less tucked in due wheel being at (camber) angle. What might be best for someone doing impractical overlowering for arguable stance looks, might not be best for someone driving at stock height or at reasonable lowering.
EDIT
oh, forgot to add. There might be some differences as to if for spacing out wheel offsets or spacers are used. That might be: 1) different brake caliper clearance if for example some big brake kit is installed, 2) looks wise, as some wish "deep-dish" recessed spoke/center looks for wheels.

[re-animator]

Originally Posted by Stang70Fastback

Staggered is worse for performance; not better. A square setup is ideal both in terms of performance (neutral handling) and in terms of being able to properly rotate your tires. Putting wider tires on the rear makes the car more prone to understeer, though you likely wouldn't notice in DD use unless you like to drive at 10/10ths on the street... which you shouldn't, lol.

You're right that it is more neutral and a staggered setup will lead to understeer in this car, but overall a staggered setup CAN be better for performance.... the car just has to be set up for it. You're not going to put squared rims and tires on a 911 gt3 or a viper acr or even an mr2 turbo, but those cars are designed from the ground up for staggered setup. trying to turn a neutral car into a staggered setup without a lot of corresponding work is going to be a bad time.

Originally Posted by ST185RC

You should get a new dealer. if you do play out your conceived wheel choice, your car's performance will suffer some pretty big penalties. The car barely has enough stock torque to get decent acceleration from the stock 17x7.

Your braking distance will definitely increase, your acceleration will suffer, your turn in will be horrible, your hubs will see excessive wear.

If you're gonna spend on knockoff wheels, that would be your first mistake.

you are right about everything in this post except for braking distance. someone correct me if i'm wrong, but more rubber is almost always going to be better for braking performance than less rubber. Larger contact patch - larger braking surface - more drag to actually bring the car to a stop. That said, a squared setup of say 245 all around is going to perform better than 215f/245r by that same principle.

[churchx]

re-animator: how completely different cars designed around completely different tire setup can be used as any argument at all in relation to twins. Next will be what, using F1 technologies in monster truck? There can not be drawn any generalization related to tire staggering between 911/viper/twins of different designs/suspension/weight balance/drivetrain. Sorry, but arguments "but it works that way in some other cars", and even more so generalized to all of cars, anger me a lot, please no offense.
One CAN with other means like different aero/suspension/alignment setup affecting front & rear grip to workaround and fix back artificial extra understeer from wrong tire/wheel choice, yes. But should one? It's so much better to not willfully pay own money for doing known mistake in first place then keep spending even more money/time/work to fix it. That is if performance/handling matters. To some not, i accept that fact. If car is never really pushed to limits, if car is primary for looks - anybody is free to do with their car & money whatever they wish. Though there is another bit that angers me a lot, if that is advised also to others and reasoned "but overall a staggered setup CAN be better for performance".

[Stang70Fastback]

Originally Posted by re-animator

You're right that it is more neutral and a staggered setup will lead to understeer in this car, but overall a staggered setup CAN be better for performance.... the car just has to be set up for it. You're not going to put squared rims and tires on a 911 gt3 or a viper acr or even an mr2 turbo, but those cars are designed from the ground up for staggered setup. trying to turn a neutral car into a staggered setup without a lot of corresponding work is going to be a bad time.

Correct. My statement was specifically in reference to this platform. Basically, if your car didn't come with a staggered setup, and you haven't made any other modifications that require such a setup, you probably aren't doing yourself any favors by going staggered.

[re-animator]

Originally Posted by churchx

re-animator: how completely different cars designed around completely different tire setup can be used as any argument at all in relation to twins. Next will be what, using F1 technologies in monster truck? There can not be drawn any generalization related to tire staggering between 911/viper/twins of different designs/suspension/weight balance/drivetrain. Sorry, but arguments "but it works that way in some other cars", and even more so generalized to all of cars, anger me a lot, please no offense.
One CAN with other means like different aero/suspension/alignment setup affecting front & rear grip to workaround and fix back artificial extra understeer from wrong tire/wheel choice, yes. But should one? It's so much better to not willfully pay own money for doing known mistake in first place then keep spending even more money/time/work to fix it. That is if performance/handling matters. To some not, i accept that fact. If car is never really pushed to limits, if car is primary for looks - anybody is free to do with their car & money whatever they wish. Though there is another bit that angers me a lot, if that is advised also to others and reasoned "but overall a staggered setup CAN be better for performance".

it is important to understand vehicle dynamics when you are discussing modifying a vehicle. the principle is the same. you are implying a staggered setup causes understeer and that is not the case. understeer is caused by a lack of grip in the front wheels. a car with 225s all around is going to understeer exactly as much at a given speed/throttle as a car with say 225f 265r. a car with that staggered setup will understeer less at a given speed than a car with the stock 215 primacys all around, provided it is properly set up.

the difference is that with say a staggered 225/265 you have more grip in the rear wheels. Since you have more grip back there the limit on the rears becomes higher relative to the limit of the front wheels. If you oversteered a given corner at 45mph with a square setup then changed to a staggered setup with bigger tires you will not suddenly understeer the corner at the same speed. However, since you can carry more speed without breaking out the rear you might now understeer that same corner at a higher speed.

This is why when people talk about performance with these setups they talk about how staggered setup "biases a car toward understeer" and that a square setup is "neutral." not that the setup itself triggers understeer that was not previously there. It raises the grip limit in the rears making you more likely to hit the limit on the fronts, resulting in understeer. The result is that the car is more likely to hit understeer than oversteer. That's why you only really see functional staggered setups on FI versions of our cars. With 170whp it is fun to have a neutral car. With 250whp it is a lot easier to break traction in the back and people would rather have a car biased towards understeer so that the car is more predictable and easier to handle.

[churchx]

re-animator: i just were talking about these particular cars, that have suspension designed around square setup. Not about physics behind tires/grip/grip balance in general. And how little blind applying from very different cars some "taken out of context" choices make no sense and shouldn't be advised for various reasons, rather worth informing why it's wrong, when car owner originally with those changes wanted something else. Those that are after specific looks - let them go ahead. They have different priorities/wishes. Those that state that they went for that to rise performance/capabilities? Should be informed why it's wrong, prior they have already spent lot of money on expensive wheel (even more so if forged) & tire set, that may need more spendings "to fix/workaround", or loose money on trying to sell half of set to get normal one, or not getting wished/expected performance/handling improvement they were after.
Again to reiterate. Can staggered setup be made back to one handling better? Sure. With money, and with some sideeffects, yes. Are there some well performing upmarket sporty cars with staggered setup? Sure. But going staggered for twins while originally wishing for more performance will be bad choice.

[ST185RC]

Originally Posted by re-animator

You're right that it is more neutral and a staggered setup will lead to understeer in this car, but overall a staggered setup CAN be better for performance.... the car just has to be set up for it. You're not going to put squared rims and tires on a 911 gt3 or a viper acr or even an mr2 turbo, but those cars are designed from the ground up for staggered setup. trying to turn a neutral car into a staggered setup without a lot of corresponding work is going to be a bad time.



you are right about everything in this post except for braking distance. someone correct me if i'm wrong, but more rubber is almost always going to be better for braking performance than less rubber. Larger contact patch - larger braking surface - more drag to actually bring the car to a stop. That said, a squared setup of say 245 all around is going to perform better than 215f/245r by that same principle.

I go by the school of thought that there's a lot more mass to stop rotating given the brakes are equal in the same situation. your contact patch with wider tires will help offset some of the braking performance loss, but going to 18x9.5 from a 17x7 is a pretty big weight penalty, let's not forget that tires aren't exactly weightless either.