Jackson Racing Dual Radiator/Oil Cooler

[venturaII]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

The only issue, is that the factory cooler is a bit lacking for any performance driving, such as canyoning, or even a novice on the track.

Remember, oil temp is directly related to RPM, and our version of the FA20 revs just a wee bit higher than an EJ or FA20DIT. The OEM cooler isn't able to keep up, at all, in this application.

Well, I don't log my own data, but of the logs I have seen on here, that statement doesn't seem entirely true. Granted, the W2O cooler is not as efficient at cooling as a larger A2O cooler, but suggesting that a 9.5% increase in redline makes an oil cooler designed to handle the extra heat generated from a turbo application somehow unable to manage the heat generated by the naturally aspirated version of the same motor seems a little unrealistic.

[Tor]

Originally Posted by venturaII

Again, you're clearly missing the point of the factory cooler, which is that it kills two birds with one stone (and in a compact and affordable form factor). I'm not concerned with just one of the two main areas it addresses, I'm concerned with both, which is why I didn't purchase a simple thermostat-less air-to-oil cooler.

I'm happy you feel confident that you 'debunked' a well engineered factory component, which many manufacturers use on both F/I and N/A applications. Maybe you should let them know.

The factory cooler is an oil cooler. It's not there to heat up the oil.

I'm just trying to help people not to buy something they don't need, due to misinformation. Lot's of people here locally (who don't need an oil cooler at all) installed the factory solution because they thought it would heat the oil up faster - sure it does... 4 more deg after about 5 mins. That's waste of money in my book.

If you have other data that suggest otherwise you should present it.

[Horrid_Funk]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

Yes the coolant heats faster than the oil. The difference is the Forester XT regulator circulates the warming coolant against the cool oil heating it up. Meanwhile, the coolant in the radiator is still cold because the coolant in the engine is warm but not hot, not hot enough to open the thermostat to circulate coolant through the radiator. Therefore, the oil in the JR setup is not being warmed—if anything it could be getting cooled by the radiator.

How much it matters or to what difference it makes, I don’t know.

Yeah that's why depending on a lot of variables it could be slower or faster. So let's break this into two stages. Stage 1 the oil is running through the radiator, but the coolant isn't. Stage 2 both are running. Stage 2 begins when the thermostat opens. Variables being temp and air flow (Heat being drawn from the radiator), RPMs (Heat being applied to oil), and engine load (Heat being applied to coolant).

So worst case scenario is high air flow, low RPMs, and low engine load. This would maximize the time in stage 1 while maximizing cooling being done to the oil. Compared to no oil cooler, the oil is being heated slower.

The coolant will heat up faster than the oil, stage 2 will begin and the oil will begin to be heated. It will be at a faster rate than with no oil cooler as heat is now being transferred from the warm coolant to the cold oil. Compared to no oil cooler, the oil is now being heated faster.

Best case scenario is low air flow, high RPMs, and high engine load. This would minimize time in stage 1 while maximizing heating being done to counteract the heat drawn from the oil by the cooler. Compared to the other two scenarios, the oil is being heated at a rate somewhere in between.

Stage 2 will begin earlier and the oil may get up to temperature faster than stock. Compared to the other two scenarios, the oil is being heated faster in this stage.

I've attached a graph showing these hypothetical situations and how I'd expect the general shape of each scenario. I'm assuming the coolant thermostat opening at 5 minutes for best case scenario and at 10 minutes for the worst case. Keep in mind this is just a hypothesis and the values of the variables involved may be different than what I'm assuming so that even in the best case scenario it may be slower, or the worst case faster.

You can see how the variables in play will affect the time required to heat the oil and that until some thorough testing is done no one can definitively say one way or the other.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by Teseo

Big rad would be suffice or need fans also?

Neither. There's just not enough area for heat exchange between oil and coolant with the factory oil cooler. Oil will still get too hot, while coolant stays on the thermostat.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by venturaII

Well, I don't log my own data, but of the logs I have seen on here, that statement doesn't seem entirely true. Granted, the W2O cooler is not as efficient at cooling as a larger A2O cooler, but suggesting that a 9.5% increase in redline makes an oil cooler designed to handle the extra heat generated from a turbo application somehow unable to manage the heat generated by the naturally aspirated version of the same motor seems a little unrealistic.

Try this test.

Cruise on the highway in 6th gear at 70mph. Log for 120 seconds. Now do the same in 5th gear. Then 4th. Then 3rd.

Watch how the oil temp equilibrium goes up exponentialy as RPM goes up linearly. Feel free to adjust vehicle speed to get linear RPM steps, if you prefer, and graph out the data points.

[venturaII]

Originally Posted by Tor

The factory cooler is an oil cooler.

If you're going to be pedantic about it, then you're wrong. It's a heat exchanger, as EVERY oil 'cooler' is. An A2O cooler would heat the oil up just as quickly as a W2O one if it was 200 degrees outside.

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Try this test.

I'm not disputing the idea that rpms do generate heat. What I'm questioning is that the extra 9.5% of rpms generates more heat than a turbocharger does, on which application the OEM cooler seems to work just fine.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by venturaII

If you're going to be pedantic about it, then you're wrong. It's a heat exchanger, as EVERY oil 'cooler' is. An A2O cooler would heat the oil up just as quickly as a W2O one if it was 200 degrees outside.







I'm not disputing the idea that rpms do generate heat. What I'm questioning is that the extra 9.5% of rpms generates more heat than a turbocharger does, on which application the OEM cooler seems to work just fine.

It does, because the WRX FA20DIT turbo is water cooled, not oil cooled.

My daily driver is a 16 WRX :p

[venturaII]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

It does, because the WRX FA20DIT turbo is water cooled, not oil cooled.

My daily driver is a 16 WRX :p

So a red hot turbo is able to be cooled adequately by coolant, but oil somehow cannot be cooled by the same coolant over a larger area? And does the turbo not also have oil running through it as well, contributing significantly to oil temps? Sorry - this is sounding more and more like an effort to sell aftermarket stuff, and less like a discussion of how things actually work in real life.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by venturaII

So a red hot turbo is able to be cooled adequately by coolant, but oil somehow cannot be cooled by the same coolant over a larger area? And does the turbo not also have oil running through it as well, contributing significantly to oil temps? Sorry - this is sounding more and more like an effort to sell aftermarket stuff, and less like a discussion of how things actually work in real life.

Turbos don't get red hot unless you're driving them hard.

For that matter, a *STOCK* WRX overheats coolant in 3 back to back pulls on the dyno. MGT2259S. You're welcome to look up specs yourself; it is a *water cooled* turbo.

I think you confuse the conducted heat of the oil in the turbocharger, versus the frictional heat generated in the oil by RPMs.

It's a very simple test you can do yourself. Go on the highway, and watch your oil temps by cruising in 3rd gear. You may be shocked at how quickly they climb.

[venturaII]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Turbos don't get red hot unless you're driving them hard.

And no one drives at 7400 rpm unless they're doing the same.

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

You're welcome to look up specs yourself; it is a *water cooled* turbo.

With *oil* running through it as well. Heat doesn't care how it gets generated - conductive or frictional, it's still heat in the end. I'm all set with the sales pitch. Thanks.

[CSG Mike]

It's not a sales pitch. It's how the turbo works. Oil lubricated, water cooled.

https://www.google.com/search?q=wate...l+cooled+turbo

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by venturaII

And no one drives at 7400 rpm unless they're doing the same.






With *oil* running through it as well. Heat doesn't care how it gets generated - conductive or frictional, it's still heat in the end. I'm all set with the sales pitch. Thanks.

Precisely. Case in point: FA20 cooks oil. FA20DIT cooks coolant. Even that red hot turbo cause the *coolant* to get too hot.

You should look up oil coking in turbos, and why turbos became oil cooled. Something something specific heat something something equilibrium temp something something.

[Irace86.2.0]

I really can’t imagine the factory cooler being sufficient to cool oil in hot-day, heavy-driving applications or for serious track applications. As CSG Mike said, there is just not enough surface area. It would be like wearing a plastic track suit on a 95 degree day when running and holding an ice cold water bottle in your hands and expecting to feel cooled down enough to continue your run.

Ive already installed the factory oil cooler, and I believe it does help to get my oil up to temp and in control for my aggressive NA driving, but I will be getting this setup when I install the Harrop SC. I like that it upgrades the radiator and adds water to air oil cooling in a simple package.

My desire to leave the factory oil cooler in place is to have that extra oil warming and so there is one less thing to remove and sell at a loss. If they both can fit then I would like to keep them both.

[venturaII]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Precisely. Case in point: FA20 cooks oil. FA20DIT cooks coolant. Even that red hot turbo cause the *coolant* to get too hot.

You should look up oil coking in turbos, and why turbos became oil cooled. Something something specific heat something something equilibrium temp something something.

I'm well aware of coking and why turbos finally went water cooled. I was spinning wrenches at a SAAB dealership when the first load of water cooled turbos came in back in the mid 80's. Old news, and all fine examples of why there's an oil cooler on the DIT motors which seems to do a fine job on street cars.