TRD Wheels on a 2018 BRZ

[rvoll]

Originally Posted by fatoni

okay so this is where you prove to have been wrong earlier then. if you put that tire on an 8" rim, its faster. you have post after post telling me that going wider is bad because the tread width will be too much for such a light car and now youre contradicting yourself. all i ever said was wider wheels (than 7") are faster. you have said that lowering cars too much is bad, too much tire is bad, and a bunch of other things that have nothing to do with what im saying. your "evidence" is rarely related to your conclusion and your conclusion is rarely related to the truth.

you dont know what youre talking about.

Do you just make things up? Wider wheels are "faster"? Really? Is it because they weigh more or have more wind resistance? I didn't say going wider was bad, only that it may not be optimum for your specific purpose. And yes, going too wide is a bad thing for street use if you really want performance. Lowering a car (known as slamming) reduces ride comfort and on many streets, can cause the car to scrape the road. Without proper matching shocks/struts, you'll wear your suspension out quickly. Is that a good thing? Really? Are you really trying to argue that you know the truth and those of us with years of track experience don't?

One more thing to consider. The wider the tire, the more square the contact patch and the more prone the tire is to hydroplaning. You knew that, right? You want to be able to drive your car in the rain safely, don't you? Choosing a tire for regular street use is far different than choosing one for track where you have smoother roads, controlled weather, and know turns vs. straightaways. Good luck....

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by rvoll

Do you just make things up? Wider wheels are "faster"? Really? Is it because they weigh more or have more wind resistance? I didn't say going wider was bad, only that it may not be optimum for your specific purpose. And yes, going too wide is a bad thing for street use if you really want performance. Lowering a car (known as slamming) reduces ride comfort and on many streets, can cause the car to scrape the road. Without proper matching shocks/struts, you'll wear your suspension out quickly. Is that a good thing? Really? Are you really trying to argue that you know the truth and those of us with years of track experience don't?

One more thing to consider. The wider the tire, the more square the contact patch and the more prone the tire is to hydroplaning. You knew that, right? You want to be able to drive your car in the rain safely, don't you? Choosing a tire for regular street use is far different than choosing one for track where you have smoother roads, controlled weather, and know turns vs. straightaways. Good luck....

https://forum.miata.net/vb/archive/i.../t-357256.html

so the guy explaining all of this (emillio700), is the owner/operator of 949racing. he makes racing wheels for the miata, twins, elise, mustang and they are the real deal. he doesnt even bother with a 7" wide wheel for our platform.

andy hollis, another amazing driver (more than a doezen national autox championships), tire tester for grm and and asking for take off 8s because the car he needs them on cant take 9s.

all this is regarding the first 2 generation miatas. the car that is smaller, slower and hundreds of pounds lighter than the frs.

i still dont know why you bring up slamming cars. literally zero relation to the argument at hand. or hydroplaning for that matter, might as well just put some snow tires on the car. or wait, what happens if you go off a bridge, replace the tires with rudders. you want to be safe in the lake dont you?

[rvoll]

Originally Posted by fatoni

so the guy explaining all of this (emillio700), is the owner/operator of 949racing. he makes racing wheels for the miata, twins, elise, mustang and they are the real deal. he doesnt even bother with a 7" wide wheel for our platform.

andy hollis, another amazing driver (more than a doezen national autox championships), tire tester for grm and and asking for take off 8s because the car he needs them on cant take 9s.

all this is regarding the first 2 generation miatas. the car that is smaller, slower and hundreds of pounds lighter than the frs.

i still dont know why you bring up slamming cars. literally zero relation to the argument at hand. or hydroplaning for that matter, might as well just put some snow tires on the car. or wait, what happens if you go off a bridge, replace the tires with rudders. you want to be safe in the lake dont you?

HE MAKES RACING WHEELS!!! NOT STREET WHEELS!!! Again, when you are racing on a controlled environment like a track, there are different factors at play. First, many of the racing Miata's have modified engines giving them 300+ hp. Secondly, you don't run street tires on those rims -- you run stickier racing tires which changes the geometry. Again, you don't seem to understand that the choice of tire/wheel combinations is very complex. On my track Porsches, I used wide wheels and tires, but not on my street Porsches which were close to factory specs.

I don't know how to get this through to you, but the best tire/wheel combo for the street is different than it is for racing on a track. You don't know when it is going to rain, so on a street car, hydroplaning IS an issue.

So when DSPORT modified their Miata, they wanted wheels and tires that were aggressive, but could be driven on the street effectively. The tire they chose was a 215/45/17. But that Miata already had modified suspension and was lowered. And of course, the main reason, at least in my case to own a BRZ is the fun of driving it. Here's an interesting article about driving fun you should read:

https://arstechnica.com/cars/2015/09...da-mx-5-miata/

Tirerack has a video about running three different tires on the 86 which you should see. The one they liked best was not the stickiest one.

Again, this is a complicated issue and you have to decide whether you want a car that is good on the street, is good on the track, or is one you want to look much faster than it is, i.e., extra wide tires, lowered, big wheels, etc. I've decided I want the best street car with the best ride, and good performance. The OEM Primacies do slide too much and I just don't like polished wheels on a car that has little other chrome. So I am doing a little bit about looks, but keeping it fairly close to stock. You've obviously decided otherwise. I cannot really rationalize, from a performance perspective, changing much from stock, except that I just don't like that polished look and the OEM tires slide a bit too much for me.

By the way, which BRZ do you drive on a daily basis from which you have all of this experience? You can have the last post. I'm done. I hope some of the issues mentioned here will help others make their own decisions. Have a great day!!!

[nikitopo]

@fatoni You are confusing racing with autocross. The latter is another story. You don't have big straights and high speeds. And we are talking here about stock performance or almost stock performance cars which is the main parameter. If emillio says that the same rules apply on a race track, then he doesn't have real experience in this area or he just tries to sell his products ...

And just accept it: Autocross isn't racing
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/201...s-isnt-racing/

If you are an autocrosser, you should try someday the real thing . Have a good day too!

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by rvoll

HE MAKES RACING WHEELS!!! NOT STREET WHEELS!!! Again, when you are racing on a controlled environment like a track, there are different factors at play. First, many of the racing Miata's have modified engines giving them 300+ hp. Secondly, you don't run street tires on those rims -- you run stickier racing tires which changes the geometry. Again, you don't seem to understand that the choice of tire/wheel combinations is very complex. On my track Porsches, I used wide wheels and tires, but not on my street Porsches which were close to factory specs.

I don't know how to get this through to you, but the best tire/wheel combo for the street is different than it is for racing on a track. You don't know when it is going to rain, so on a street car, hydroplaning IS an issue.

So when DSPORT modified their Miata, they wanted wheels and tires that were aggressive, but could be driven on the street effectively. The tire they chose was a 215/45/17. But that Miata already had modified suspension and was lowered. And of course, the main reason, at least in my case to own a BRZ is the fun of driving it. Here's an interesting article about driving fun you should read:

https://arstechnica.com/cars/2015/09...da-mx-5-miata/

Tirerack has a video about running three different tires on the 86 which you should see. The one they liked best was not the stickiest one.

Again, this is a complicated issue and you have to decide whether you want a car that is good on the street, is good on the track, or is one you want to look much faster than it is, i.e., extra wide tires, lowered, big wheels, etc. I've decided I want the best street car with the best ride, and good performance. The OEM Primacies do slide too much and I just don't like polished wheels on a car that has little other chrome. So I am doing a little bit about looks, but keeping it fairly close to stock. You've obviously decided otherwise. I cannot really rationalize, from a performance perspective, changing much from stock, except that I just don't like that polished look and the OEM tires slide a bit too much for me.

By the way, which BRZ do you drive on a daily basis from which you have all of this experience? You can have the last post. I'm done. I hope some of the issues mentioned here will help others make their own decisions. Have a great day!!!

im actually gonna ignore all the bs you just said and end with this: pick a tire size. lets say 225. for that tire, a 7" rim will not be faster or more fun or have better turn in or have more consistent tire temps than it will on an 8" rim. if it isnt a classing issue there is no reason not to jump. thats true for street or track purposes. i understand that there is a certain fun with skinny tires. i have never been talking about tire sizes in my argument ever. i have owned a stock brz since 2013 on stock tires and i have an elise on r888.the brz is not more fun.

[switchlanez]

Originally Posted by rvoll

Can you show me where the OEM recommends 225's vs 215's on 7.5 rims?

http://www.trdparts.jp/english/86_pe...rts_wheel.html
https://www.subaru.co.jp/en/news/arc...e_2_91012.html

Toyota even collaborated with Dunlop on a 225/40R18 tire with "Direzza II 86" stamped on the sidewall. http://tirepro-r.com/blog/2012/09/86.html



https://toyota.jp/customize/86/14r-60/performance/ is the 100-unit limited production 14R60 with an essentially stock powertrain but this wheel/tire package:
（Fr 18×8.5J inset 30 / Rr 18×8.5J inset 46)ブリヂストン製専用タイヤ　”RE-11A 3.3T”　（235/40-R18）

Originally Posted by rvoll

Wheels carry something called "tires".

There you go being pretentious again. Right when I saw that I skimmed through and quickly realized whatever verbose BS you wrote after isn't worth reading lol. Tires are wildly variable. 245 wide models fit more flush than other 265 models. Curb guards give you extra mm of flushness. It's a wash. You can't fudge wheel specs, though, down to the millimeter.

Originally Posted by rvoll

I'll be a little more flush than you.

Doubt you'll be more flush than my 235(F) / 265(R) tires on 18x8.5(F) / 18x9.5(R) wheels (Cayman-inspired as I mentioned earlier). I conservatively recommended 18x8 to be considerate to your particular interest in half-inch minutae because that makes all the difference in wheels for non-racing purposes.

Originally Posted by rvoll

And again, I think your wheels look great!!!! I liked them so much I did a search to see the price. I wouldn't have done that otherwise. If they would have been in the price range of the TRD wheel, I might well have been convinced. However, they cost twice as much and that is hard to justify given that they would both be almost just as flush....

They're not even that expensive for what you get relative to direct competition and the wheel industry as a whole. Priced quite competitively, actually. Other high performance forged wheels go for $5-$10k a set. Same for VIP/luxury and those put a damper in performance. OEM Ford Mustang wheels that owners crave are $4k... each ($16k a set). That's my perspective of the wheel market.

And "forged" has varying methods and levels of quality. I've seen a forged wheel from a known high end brand break more easily than cast wheels due to unsound manufacturing techniques. Can't speak to the TRDs but TRD doesn't manufacture forged wheels. They contract suppliers. The TRD SF2 is forged and costs more than TWS (~$1k apiece on Amazon) because it's TRD branded but supplied by TWS. I doubt TWS makes your TRD wheel because it's a budget wheel and looks it. The kind of wheel Release Series 2.0 owners sell for a few hundred because it's a stock wheel (which you may want to hunt on). The Titan 7 and XXR 527F wheels look insanely better on a similar budget and nowhere near black in color.

Regarding the original topic of your thread, I see almost no progress. This thread is a dead end the way it's going. Just a lot of highly philosophical noise (from my practical perspective). I'm still not clear what matters to you. How millimeters and half inches ruin performance? Need us to convince you to buy a budget stock wheel that looks like what you specifically don't want? I suggest you post on other wheel threads if you haven't already instead of bogging in argumentative minutiae. People with more knowledge and less noise still hang around this forum. The noisy ones have moved onto the Facebook 86 enthusiast page.

[nikitopo]

Originally Posted by fatoni

im actually gonna ignore all the bs you just said and end with this: pick a tire size. lets say 225. for that tire, a 7" rim will not be faster or more fun or have better turn in or have more consistent tire temps than it will on an 8" rim. if it isnt a classing issue there is no reason not to jump. thats true for street or track purposes. i understand that there is a certain fun with skinny tires. i have never been talking about tire sizes in my argument ever. i have owned a stock brz since 2013 on stock tires and i have an elise on r888.the brz is not more fun.

A 225 tire on a 7" rim and a 8" rim? No, you are even more wrong. This has been tested and measured again. I had 16 inch 6.5" rims and I switched them to 7" rims with same tire sizes. The ONLY reason to do this is to have a bit stronger sidewalls. You don't have more traction. Ask the Japanese's that are doing the same in the Gazoo 86/BRZ races. Check also the performance package where factory was doing the same. Using the 215's on 7.5" instead of 7" rims. Why do you think on the tS they went back to 7" rims and JUST better rubber? Because the sidewalls are already stronger on a bigger 18" wheel. I told you before, that for traction you need better tires. It looks that for you bigger is always better, which in fact is NOT!

[switchlanez]

Originally Posted by ERA

meet up at reuben h fleet center tonight??

[rvoll]

Originally Posted by switchlanez

Toyota even collaborated with Dunlop on a 225/40R18 tire with "Direzza II 86" stamped on the sidewall.

There you go being pretentious again. Right when I saw that I skimmed through and quickly realized whatever verbose BS you wrote after isn't worth reading lol. Tires are wildly variable. 245 wide models fit more flush than other 265 models. Curb guards give you extra mm of flushness. It's a wash. You can't fudge wheel specs, though, down to the millimeter.

Doubt you'll be more flush than my 235(F) / 265(R) tires on 18x8.5(F) / 18x9.5(R) wheels (Cayman-inspired as I mentioned earlier). I conservatively recommended 18x8 to be considerate to your particular interest in half-inch minutae because that makes all the difference in wheels for non-racing purposes.

They're not even that expensive for what you get relative to direct competition and the wheel industry as a whole. Priced quite competitively, actually. Other high performance forged wheels go for $5-$10k a set. Same for VIP/luxury and those put a damper in performance. OEM Ford Mustang wheels that owners crave are $4k... each ($16k a set). That's my perspective of the wheel market.

People with more knowledge and less noise still hang around this forum.

A lot of tire/wheel combos are tested, so those comments are just BS because none of them were chosen for the car. There is no standard for being "flush". If you were really knowledgeable, you'd know that. And from looking at several installations, your combo, to me, is not flush as it pokes a bit. I don't like a lot of poke because of the mess it makes on your body. You're saying putting on a $10k set of wheels on a $30k street car that puts out only 200 hp makes sense? Good luck with that. Is the TRD wheel the best one out there? Not by a mile, but it is better than stock and most of the wheels offered on Tirerack and are more than necessary for this car.

You've done a lot with your car and given your supercharger, wider wheels are called for. But that was not the thrust of this topic. It was simply whether, given the use and price, that the TRD wheels was best for a BRZ that is not going to be highly customized with a supercharger. You are trying to justify your setup to those of us who just want to have a fun car to drive safely. So many people here say the OEM Primacies are not good for this car. Given that I don't have any specific experience with the BRZ, I listened. The change in rims is only because aesthetically, I just don't like the stock Limited rims but still want 17's for ride quality. Obviously, you don't care much about ride quality.

There are people with more knowledge on many subjects with more knowledge than me. I will let others, who are not committed to justifying their purchase of wide wheels and are objective, judge that. You do realize your comments make absolutely no sense, don't you?

[Vital]

Interesting, i never realized lowering a car 15-25mm is considered "slamming"

[Jordanwolf]

Originally Posted by Vital

Interesting, i never realized lowering a car 15-25mm is considered "slamming"

I also did not realize that 10 mm of tire was so important on a street tire that debates needed to be had about which is the master race.

Y'all should drive Egoboost Mustangs. So much opinion here...


:b arf:

[switchlanez]

Originally Posted by rvoll

A lot of tire/wheel combos are tested, so those comments are just BS because none of them were chosen for the car. There is no standard for being "flush". If you were really knowledgeable, you'd know that. And from looking at several installations, your combo, to me, is not flush as it pokes a bit. I don't like a lot of poke because of the mess it makes on your body. You're saying putting on a $10k set of wheels on a $30k street car that puts out only 200 hp makes sense? Good luck with that. Is the TRD wheel the best one out there? Not by a mile, but it is better than stock and most of the wheels offered on Tirerack and are more than necessary for this car.

You've done a lot with your car and given your supercharger, wider wheels are called for. But that was not the thrust of this topic. It was simply whether, given the use and price, that the TRD wheels was best for a BRZ that is not going to be highly customized with a supercharger. You are trying to justify your setup to those of us who just want to have a fun car to drive safely. So many people here say the OEM Primacies are not good for this car. Given that I don't have any specific experience with the BRZ, I listened. The change in rims is only because aesthetically, I just don't like the stock Limited rims but still want 17's for ride quality. Obviously, you don't care much about ride quality.

There are people with more knowledge on many subjects with more knowledge than me. I will let others, who are not committed to justifying their purchase of wide wheels and are objective, judge that. You do realize your comments make absolutely no sense, don't you?

Keep comparing photos from afar because that tells you everything. My wheels are sunken in enough such that they don't rub my non-rolled fenders (even when slammed on coilovers) on compression. Not trying to justify anything here, simply stating it's more flush than you thought. No need to get all defensive.

Except maybe for the Dunlops all those wheels/tires I posted were factory options chosen for these cars! Now I see why I don't make sense; you're clearly biased to deny facts.

[rvoll]

Originally Posted by switchlanez

Keep comparing photos from afar because that tells you everything. My wheels are sunken in enough such that they don't rub my non-rolled fenders (even when slammed on coilovers) on compression. Not trying to justify anything here, simply stating it's more flush than you thought. No need to get all defensive.

Except maybe for the Dunlops all those wheels/tires I posted were factory options chosen for these cars! Now I see why I don't make sense; you're clearly biased to deny facts.

I've looked at your pics, and I think you have a little poke, but then again, not much. Certainly not worth arguing about. You also have a supercharger -- and if I also had one, it would call for wider tires and wheels. My only point here, was that with the standard, unmodified engine, wide wheels and tires are just not necessary and from everything I've seen, will not improve performance significantly, if at all.

We have different objectives. I'm going for a car that is a good, but fun, daily driver, and has decent ride quality. I'm not going to supercharge the car, or track the car, or push the car aggressively through corners. I've had a bevy of Porsches over the years and have done all of that. I got rid of my last Porsche about 2 years ago after ALWAYS having a sports car. I just miss the feeling of a sports car, didn't want a Porsche again, seriously looked at the MX-5 RF, and chose the BRZ. My first sports car was a Volvo P1800 and my second a Triumph TR6. I really liked the feeling of that type of car. Some of the need for ride quality is my wife, to be honest.

Thus, I have no need for really expensive wheels, but still want a fairly strong one. Also, the stock tires slide a bit too much for me and I wanted something a tad stickier. (I've always upgraded the OEM tires) That will suit me just fine. Given those ride quality concerns, I wanted to stick with a 17" wheel, even though the 18's look better as the taller sidewall has more give. The TRD wheel seemed to be one of the few that checked all of my boxes and will give a slightly flusher look.

I would like to lower the car an inch for looks, but I do think that might have an effect on ride quality. I was looking at the TRD springs as they would not require any other suspension changes. Since you have those springs, what are your thoughts on on them? All of the damper alternatives seem to be stiffer than stock, so they are not part of my picture. Even the adjustable Koni's are stiffer.

In case you ask why I would want a sports car if I'm not going to push it, it is because the driving dynamics just gives me pleasure. I like the way it corners and feels on the road, unlike my SUV and sedans. And it brings me back to the cars I really liked to drive, especially the TR6.

By the way, I am going to put on 225/45's rather than 215's (even with the slight speedo error) because with the Pilot Sport 4S, the tread width is narrower than OEM and it will give a slightly better ride quality.

We will not agree on the NECESSITY of having wide wheels and tires. Nor will my experience lead me to believe, with this type of unmodified car, that you will get any significant performance improvements. The only way to truly settle that discussion is to put both options on the same car and check lap times. Tirerack's testing on the 86 running different tires with a race car driver and lap times, convinced me of that on this car. They got plenty of stick with the upgraded 215's -- in fact, too much stick for their liking. I just can't see how a wider tire would help in that case.

[churchx]

rvoll: are you sure on MPS4S thread width being narrower then oem? IIRC Primacies had rather narrow width for "specced width", and at least PSS on contrary had relatively very wide for a size.