TRD Wheels on a 2018 BRZ

[rvoll]

Originally Posted by switchlanez

If flushness is of any concern, why even spend $1k for wheels with stock-ish fitment? Perhaps for the sake of being forged and less typical than stock (though they look stock to the general public and came stock on the Release Series 2.0). Do you know the weight on those? I can't seem to it but some T66-F weights:

17x8 - 13.9 lbs
18x8 - 14.8 lbs
18x9.5 - 15.8 lbs (their largest size)

I don't know any forged aluminum wheels that are lighter for the size. TRD SF2 18x7.5 weighs 16.5 lbs and are made by TWS so I image the USDM 17" TRDs are heavier.

When it comes to 17x7.5 dark 15-spokers like those, I'm familiar. Had 17x7.5 15-spoke STI wheels. Can cost a boat load less than other offerings. But after owning them awhile I started to notice small things. The sunken fitment. How 17s (though lighter than 18s) look proportionally small on the car:

(Look up Prodrive Japan, ZE40 or other Volks, Advan RGIII or other Advans for forged options that look fire on a silver 86. For cheaper forged options, try Titan 7 or XXR 527F.)

1. I'm not racing the car so a few pounds at the wheels is not important.
2. I don't want a black, or near black wheel.
3. They cost way too much.
4. The STI wheels currently offered is 7" and not 7.5".
5. Again, I really don't want black wheels.

[rvoll]

Originally Posted by Racecomp Engineering

This is the most philosophical wheel thread I've seen in a while.

- Andrew

There are a great number of oversimplifications regarding wheel size, offset, tires, etc. For example, if you want to drift, you don't want the tires to be extra sticky. If you're racing around an oval track, you have different tire pressures on each side. Wider tires don't necessarily give more traction. For performance, the key is to achieve balance for a specific purpose. If you add a turbo, then the requirements will be different than not having one because the requirements of the driving wheels to reduce wheel spin are a balance between contact patch and pressure.

My experience in dealing with this issue over time shows that people have many myths regarding wider tires if they want to justify their use on their car. One myth is that putting the same tire on a wider rim is a good thing. The most important factor, however, is that the tire fit properly on the rim and is not stretched or squeezed onto a rim, i.e., you choose the tire you want and then the rim for proper fitment.

Let's face it, modders want to believe that wider is better, when in fact, it may well not be. You choose the tire/wheel combination for the specific purpose intended from a performance perspective. That said, from an aesthetic standpoint, bigger and wider wheels look more aggressive and "better". This is part of a "ricer" philosophy that if you make the car look more aggressive through stance, sound, wings, CAI's, tunes, etc., it will somehow make the car into something it isn't. That's OK, because part of owning a car is to make you feel better. I'm not immune from that. I like a flusher look with wheels and changes in stance can make a car look sleeker. But I don't kid myself into believing it actually makes the car perform any better.

[switchlanez]

Originally Posted by rvoll

1. I'm not racing the car so a few pounds at the wheels is not important.
2. I don't want a black, or near black wheel.
3. They cost way too much.
4. The STI wheels currently offered is 7" and not 7.5".
5. Again, I really don't want black wheels.

You're missing my point in what more you get for the cost vs dumping $1k on wheels with negligible difference. It's not about racing but seeking balance and noticeable improvement in enjoyment. This is coming from someone who has owned and experienced both wheel types. I didn't spend a premium to "rice out." If grip is of concern (you stated you want stickier tires) why sell yourself short on 7.5"?

JDM STI wheels come in 17x7.5 (what I had) and 18x7.5. I'm pointing out similarities between the near black TRD and STI and discouraging them. TWS' color options aren't black. So you don't really want the near black TRD wheels now?

[rvoll]

Originally Posted by fatoni

I think you're wrong about a lot of that stuff too.

Since you drive a Miata, I suggest you actually talk to someone who seriously races them about tire/wheel choice and what is most important and the trade-off's involved. I used to own a Mazda 3 and, as part of an owner's club, went through this process. You can learn a lot about misconceptions... Unfortunately, most of what you read on the internet is just not true.....

[nikitopo]

Originally Posted by Racecomp Engineering

This is the most philosophical wheel thread I've seen in a while.

- Andrew

Originally Posted by rvoll

There are a great number of oversimplifications regarding wheel size, offset, tires, etc. For example, if you want to drift, you don't want the tires to be extra sticky. If you're racing around an oval track, you have different tire pressures on each side. Wider tires don't necessarily give more traction. For performance, the key is to achieve balance for a specific purpose. If you add a turbo, then the requirements will be different than not having one because the requirements of the driving wheels to reduce wheel spin are a balance between contact patch and pressure.

My experience in dealing with this issue over time shows that people have many myths regarding wider tires if they want to justify their use on their car. One myth is that putting the same tire on a wider rim is a good thing. The most important factor, however, is that the tire fit properly on the rim and is not stretched or squeezed onto a rim, i.e., you choose the tire you want and then the rim for proper fitment.

I think Andrew was mentioning my reply on brand loyalty, but in total I agree with your comments.

I remember the designers mentioning that you can go up to a 225 tire with this car, which means a 7.5" wheel width.
I believe only exception was the TRD 14R60 car, but it was primarily focused for track. It had additional front and rear aero, a big wing and hence more weight on the tires and more traction.

[switchlanez]

You seem like a sensible guy and Toyota has offered a sensible, balanced package fitting for your needs.

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNjgv6fIBdM"]86 complete car "hachiroku" produced by Netz TOYOTA Hyogo - YouTube[/ame]


And guess what's in it:

Wheels
TWS T66-F
Size (F) 18x8.0J INSET44
Size (R) 18x8.0J INSET44

Tires
Michelin PILOT SUPER SPORT 2
Size (F)225/40/18
Size (R)225/40/18

[Racecomp Engineering]

Originally Posted by nikitopo

I think Andrew was mentioning my reply on brand loyalty, but in total I agree with your comments.

Not just yours, and no disrespect was intended.

IMO a lot car modifications and the reasoning behind them are significantly influenced by emotion and philosophy...sometimes for the better and sometimes not. They're just often hard to express online and even harder to change someone's mind on the topic.

- Andrew

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by rvoll

Since you drive a Miata, I suggest you actually talk to someone who seriously races them about tire/wheel choice and what is most important and the trade-off's involved. I used to own a Mazda 3 and, as part of an owner's club, went through this process. You can learn a lot about misconceptions... Unfortunately, most of what you read on the internet is just not true.....

I used to drive a Miata. I love right down the street from 949. The company that created super miata and makes the 6ul wheel. There might be like two people on this forum faster than he is. What I learned from them is that a 15x9 is the fastest wheel on a miata. They don't even only make 8 and 9 inch rims for this car. If you're not worried about classing issues, I'm pretty sure an 8 or 9 inch wide wheel is fastest for the frs. My other car is an Elise. With they car, you're e point holds true. The front wheels are like 6.5 "and when I use the r888, I don't ever want to go wider since I can't heat that up.

[nikitopo]

Originally Posted by fatoni

I used to drive a Miata. I love right down the street from 949. The company that created super miata and makes the 6ul wheel. There might be like two people on this forum faster than he is. What I learned from them is that a 15x9 is the fastest wheel on a miata. They don't even only make 8 and 9 inch rims for this car. If you're not worried about classing issues, I'm pretty sure an 8 or 9 inch wide wheel is fastest for the frs. My other car is an Elise. With they car, you're e point holds true. The front wheels are like 6.5 "and when I use the r888, I don't ever want to go wider since I can't heat that up.

It is a myth that a 8 or 9 inch wheel is faster on the frs. Check the results below. As rvoll mentioned people are getting confused, because they will go larger and at same time use a stickier tire. I'll add that the larger tire might give a small advantage if it is on a larger wheel (e.g. 18") and you have less sidewall.



In fact the faster tire/wheel combo in our car (without power mods and aero) is the one used in the Gazoo 86/BRZ races. It is the 205/55 16 size on a 7" wheel, but ONLY with semi slicks that have very stiff sidewalls. It isn't a coincidence that in these races all the Japanese tire companies are testing new designs before going into production. The new Yokohama A052 is an example of a very successful tire receiving its qualifications in the particular races. All the teams that were getting first positions had this tire and Yokohama decided it was worth to make it to production. Bridgestone is testing this year a new design and if it is successful, we might also see it going into production too .

Do you really believe that all the tire companies would test their new designs in a sub-optimal size? They really need to have the best possible corner speeds, the maximum track speeds, the highest tire temperatures and so on.

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by nikitopo

It is a myth that a 8 or 9 inch wheel is faster on the frs. Check the results below. As rvoll mentioned people are getting confused, because they will go larger and at same time use a stickier tire. I'll add that the larger tire might give a small advantage if it is on a larger wheel (e.g. 18") and you have less sidewall.



In fact the faster tire/wheel combo in our car (without power mods and aero) is the one used in the Gazoo 86/BRZ races. It is the 205/55 16 size on a 7" wheel, but ONLY with semi slicks that have very stiff sidewalls. It isn't a coincidence that in these races all the Japanese tire companies are testing new designs before going into production. The new Yokohama A052 is an example of a very successful tire receiving its qualifications in the particular races. All the teams that were getting first positions had this tire and Yokohama decided it was worth to make it to production. Bridgestone is testing this year a new design and if it is successful, we might also see it going into production too .

Do you really believe that all the tire companies would test their new designs in a sub-optimal size? They really need to have the best possible corner speeds, the maximum track speeds, the highest tire temperatures and so on.

I don't see anything about wheel width in the only part of your post that wasn't your obscure opinion.

[nikitopo]

Obscure opinion? Lol. I am talking only with facts. It is not about my personal opinion. These were known for years and I have mentioned them again, but people don't like to listen. I just took again the opportunity because of user rvoll. He knows his stuff and truth should be reminded to the rest of the members here.

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by nikitopo

Obscure opinion? Lol. I am talking only with facts. It is not about my personal opinion. These were known for years and I have mentioned them again, but people don't like to listen. I just took again the opportunity because of user rvoll. He knows his stuff and truth should be reminded to the rest of the members here.

The only evidence you showed that that if you make tire 3/4" taller, you will go slower.

[nikitopo]

Originally Posted by fatoni

The only evidence you showed that that if you make tire 3/4" taller, you will go slower.

The wheels were Advan RG II, measuring 18 x 71⁄2 with a +48 mm offset. The wheels also had less weight. A RG II weighs 17.2 lb.; the factory wheel weighs 20.4 lb. A 0.6sec difference is too big just for the taller tire. Besides, a slightly taller gearing doesn't lose everywhere. You lose somewhere and you win somewhere else, but that's another discussion and out of topic.

Here is a picture of the test car:




And you ignored the Gazoo races part

[rvoll]

Originally Posted by fatoni

I don't see anything about wheel width in the only part of your post that wasn't your obscure opinion.

I've done enough testing, with instruments, of wheels and tires over the years to understand this is not an opinion. I did this as a part of Porsche club events over 25 years. Like you, I initially thought that wider wheels and tires were better (30 years ago), but facts are funny things, and I was wrong. Wheels carry your rubber, and the only factors affecting performance times are weight and what tires will fit. Basically, you want the thinnest, lightest tires that get the traction you need for your specific purpose. Wider rims generally weigh more and too much rubber creates more friction and thus takes more power to drive. Since wider is NOT usually better, the only real way to get the optimum wheel/tire combo is actual testing with the particular car. If you just want looks, then go for 8-9" rims and slam your car and lower your offset. Lots of ricers do that. But if you want performance, then try to find what actually works best on the track for your particular driving styles. That's why we have forums like this, to gain the experience of people who know what they're talking about.

From all of my research and experience, I don't see any need to lower your car or buy wide rims, or move to a wider tire, unless you want to race your car with racing tires or put a turbo on your car. With a turbo, you probably want to move to a staggered fitment as the driving wheels will need a bit more stick. The Michelin OEM Primacy tires are actually good for sliding through corners, if that's what you want to do. However, if you want a bit more stick, you move to a better tire but at the same size. In our car, from a performance perspective, there is no performance reason to move to a larger size. And again, you choose your wheel size to fit the tire you want/need.

I'm moving to a slightly different wheel for a couple of reasons, but they have virtually nothing to do with performance. I don't want a polished wheel on my car and don't think black looks good on a silver car. (That's totally my opinion, however) I like a more flush look, so a smaller offset makes sense. And forged wheels are stronger than pressure cast wheels and I have hit some curbs in the past.

Again, please don't try and justify your use of wider wheels as being functionally better. If you like the way they look, then go for it. You're not racing your car (and neither am I), so get the car looking the way that makes you feel best, even if it is not supported by the fact. By the way, I do this all of the time with my cars just because getting the car to look good in my eyes is important to me. After all, occasionally I am human.....