AE86 production numbers vs future?

[ichitaka05]

Originally Posted by SUB-FT86

First off a civic starts at 15k in which the FT has no plans at starting at. Secondly a civic has a sedan option which makes up 60-70% of its sales. There is no comparison. Chevy sold 90,000 Camaro's last year and the best sales I have ever seen for a import sports car in a year was probably the miata at 35-40k sold annually in the U.S.

And it's funny that you think a civic is a sports car.

I don't wanna admit it, but Civic is part of sports car genre. Why wouldn't it make it part of sports car genre? Cuz it has sedan ver? Cuz it's cheap?

What bout sedan? Muscle car don't make sedans? I'm no expert in American/muscle car, but iirc they do make sedan muscle/sports cars. IS F doesn't count as sports car? iirc they're counted as Sports sedan! Look R32~R34. They did make SEDANS! They don't count as sports car, cuz they're sedan? You wanna keep it in US? How bout Evo/STI? BTW they're counted as SPORTS COMPACT! Don't think, coupe rwd is only ones counted as sports car. Civic is counted as Sports compact!

Yes, base Civic starts from $16k and it goes til $25k... which is around the price range Tada-san have stated and more reasonable price range. Camaro which starts from $23k and go all the way up til $37k. Not sure bout you, but I haven't heard from Tada-san that this car gonna be over $30k car. Where did you get 90,000 Camaro sold last yr? They sold 81,299 not 90,000. You don't know how to round it up? Cuz 10k is hellova big difference. Either way Civic out sold it anyways (260,218).

Again, bring the actual fact to the table.

[SUB-FT86]

Originally Posted by ichitaka05

I don't wanna admit it, but Civic is part of sports car genre. Why wouldn't it make it part of sports car genre? Cuz it has sedan ver? Cuz it's cheap?

What bout sedan? Muscle car don't make sedans? I'm no expert in American/muscle car, but iirc they do make sedan muscle/sports cars. IS F doesn't count as sports car? iirc they're counted as Sports sedan! Look R32~R34. They did make SEDANS! They don't count as sports car, cuz they're sedan? You wanna keep it in US? How bout Evo/STI? BTW they're counted as SPORTS COMPACT! Don't think, coupe rwd is only ones counted as sports car. Civic is counted as Sports compact!

Yes, base Civic starts from $16k and it goes til $25k... which is around the price range Tada-san have stated and more reasonable price range. Camaro which starts from $23k and go all the way up til $37k. Not sure bout you, but I haven't heard from Tada-san that this car gonna be over $30k car. Where did you get 90,000 Camaro sold last yr? They sold 81,299 not 90,000. You don't know how to round it up? Cuz 10k is hellova big difference. Either way Civic out sold it anyways (260,218).

Again, bring the actual fact to the table.

After reading your post about the civic I have to ask how old are you? Oh and all the sport sedans you mention don't sell well. I have seen two IS-F, four Evo's and Sti's from the new generation in the past 2 years. The reason the civic sells so well in America is because of its reliability background and cheap entry level pricing and the same thing goes for the Accord/Corolla/Camry. I know I made a mistake on the sales of the Camaro but the fact remains that no other import sports coupe with a starting price in the early 20 thousand range has sold that many copies of cars in one year. And please keep "the civic is a sports car" comment to yourself because I would never expect to hear you mention something like that. I don't even consider my RSX a sports car yet you consider a civic a sports car? All I have to say to that is WOW!!!

[enc0re]

Originally Posted by OldSkoolToys

There are 0 compact RWD hardtop coupes.

370Z? It's only 167 inches long.

EDIT: I do wish they made an 1.6 - 1.8l version with about 100hp/liter. I'd be all over that.

[SUB-FT86]

Remember the celica? That car was cheaper that the FT right? Ok, look at this quote I found.






In July 2004, Toyota announced the Celica (as well as the MR2) would be discontinued in the United States at the end of the 2005 model year due to lack of sales. [2] Celica sales hit 52,406 units in 2000, but dropped sharply to 14,856 in 2003. Just 8,710 Celicas were sold in 2004, and only 3,113 were sold in 2005. The sports coupe market, in general, was rapidly shrinking. The Subaru XT6, Nissan 240SX, Honda Prelude and Mazda RX-7 were already gone and the Acura RSX was soon to follow. In 2005, the Scion project released a spiritual successor for the North American market - the Scion tC.

[ichitaka05]

Originally Posted by SUB-FT86

After reading your post about the civic I have to ask how old are you? Oh and all the sport sedans you mention don't sell well. I have seen two IS-F, four Evo's and Sti's from the new generation in the past 2 years. The reason the civic sells so well in America is because of its reliability background and cheap entry level pricing and the same thing goes for the Accord/Corolla/Camry. I know I made a mistake on the sales of the Camaro but the fact remains that no other import sports coupe with a starting price in the early 20 thousand range has sold that many copies of cars in one year. And please keep "the civic is a sports car" comment to yourself because I would never expect to hear you mention something like that. I don't even consider my RSX a sports car yet you consider a civic a sports car? All I have to say to that is WOW!!!

I'm 27 going 28 thank you very much. I'm not teenager, so watch your mouth.

I'm amazed that how blind you are to see my point. Yes, you're right that Evo & STI are dying and I'm Subie fan, but they deserve to die, if they keep this ridiculous price range (yes, I know bout living cost blah blah blah). I don't care what you have seen in last 2 yrs. What's that gotta do with it? I see STI every single day more than Camaro or Stang. Is that prove anything? Hell no! That doesn't prove shit!

I see that Camaro sold 81k, well duh. It's second yr, of course it's gonna sell well. I gonna use tC for this example (Yes, tC). First yr they only sold 28k while second yr it sold 74k and kept that rec for few yrs and look now, last yr they only sold 15k. Camaro gonna follow exact same path and all the current muscle cars... well technically not all cuz Mustang is doing fairly well (still one of the worse rec within pass 11 yrs). While you claim "un-sport" civic is still in top 10 selling car for long time.

Which sound more profitable to Toyota/Subaru. Put high price to make sports car fan only buy it and sell well first few yrs and discontinue 9th yr like S2k (no offense to S2k owners). OR have price range that is in between and make their own class and keep the continuous high to mid selling like Miata.

I'm not financial specialist, but second option sound more profitable than first choice.

I don't care you think civic isn't sports car. That's not my problem, cuz that's your opinion. The fact doesn't change, Civic is part of sports car genre (not all, but certain civic anyways).

[SUB-FT86]

Originally Posted by ichitaka05

I'm 27 going 28 thank you very much. I'm not teenager, so watch your mouth.

I'm amazed that how blind you are to see my point. Yes, you're right that Evo & STI are dying and I'm Subie fan, but they deserve to die, if they keep this ridiculous price range (yes, I know bout living cost blah blah blah). I don't care what you have seen in last 2 yrs. What's that gotta do with it? I see STI every single day more than Camaro or Stang. Is that prove anything? Hell no! That doesn't prove shit!

I see that Camaro sold 81k, well duh. It's second yr, of course it's gonna sell well. I gonna use tC for this example (Yes, tC). First yr they only sold 28k while second yr it sold 74k and kept that rec for few yrs and look now, last yr they only sold 15k. Camaro gonna follow exact same path and all the current muscle cars... well technically not all cuz Mustang is doing fairly well (still one of the worse rec within pass 11 yrs). While you claim "un-sport" civic is still in top 10 selling car for long time.

Which sound more profitable to Toyota/Subaru. Put high price to make sports car fan only buy it and sell well first few yrs and discontinue 9th yr like S2k (no offense to S2k owners). OR have price range that is in between and make their own class and keep the continuous high to mid selling like Miata.

I'm not financial specialist, but second option sound more profitable than first choice.

I don't care you think civic isn't sports car. That's not my problem, cuz that's your opinion. The fact doesn't change, Civic is part of sports car genre (not all, but certain civic anyways).

On the contrary it is a fact. Look up what class the civic falls into. Arguing with you is like arguing with a 5 year old so I am done on this topic.

And another thing I like how gangster you sound on the internets. Everyone is a e-thug until reality sets in.

[ichitaka05]

Originally Posted by SUB-FT86

On the contrary it is a fact. Look up what class the civic falls into. Arguing with you is like arguing with a 5 year old so I am done on this topic.

And another thing I like how gangster you sound on the internets. Everyone is a e-thug until reality sets in.

Are you done fooling yourself?

Read the whole thing, before reply. Didn't I write "not all, but certain civic anyways". Look up Civic Type-R, what class that belong to? Wanna keep it in US? Then look up Civic Si. Again, your argument is pure car newb... correction, even newb know these kind of thing.

Insult all you want, but at least insult me w something better than that.

[matadormi5]

Originally Posted by ichitaka05

Read the whole thing, before reply. Didn't I write "not all, but certain civic anyways". Look up Civic Type-R, what class that belong to? Wanna keep it in US? Then look up Civic Si. Again, your argument is pure car newb... correction, even newb know these kind of thing.

I have to say that I agree. I feel that the old definition of a "sports car" is way too strict, especially considering the variety of cars and the technology that exist today.

I say that a car is a "sports car" if it was designed and created with sporting/performance priorities. Thus, the Type-R and the Si would count.

Hardcore purist will say that sports cars are only RWD, 2 doors, 2 seats, manual transmission....

But if they say that, they must also be saying that these aren't sports cars either....
Every current Ferrari
Every current Lamborghini (minus Balboni)
Porsche's 911 Turbo
GT-R
STI and Evo
LF-A
....pretty much every modern performance car minus a few.

I could kinda see why one wouldn't put the Civic variants under the sports car title, but it just feels too strict for me. It's an opinion after all so not much else to say.

[zigzagz94]

Originally Posted by VenomRush

im planning on having a small sticker that lets people know that ive been following this car since october of 09.. something along the lines of "original something something" with my forum name

<-------------------------


Great idea I wonder where I've seen that before...oh wait J/K

You can have any other number except 13, lol.

[Mr.Jay]

Originally Posted by matadormi5

I say that a car is a "sports car" if it was designed and created with sporting/performance priorities. Thus, the Type-R and the Si would count.

Only the Type R would count

Si I don't think it does enough to be consider a true sports car

[Zaku]

Actually... I think "Sports Car" would mean a car designed from the ground up to be performance Oriented. Not a Car based on a passenger Sedan Vehicle. For Example S2000 and Civic Type R the S2000 is a pure n true sports car. A Civic Type R is considered a Performance car, Like a EVO and STI are technically "Rally cars" reversed engineered into Passenger sedans. I hope this makes sense. And then there's Ferrari which are considered "Thoroughbred" (I can't spell) and 'Hyper Cars" A 911 is a sports car but a ENZO is a "Hyper Car" F430 are Thoroughbred.

"A sports car is a small, usually two seat automobile designed for high speed driving and maneuverability"

[ichitaka05]

Originally Posted by matadormi5

I have to say that I agree. I feel that the old definition of a "sports car" is way too strict, especially considering the variety of cars and the technology that exist today.

I say that a car is a "sports car" if it was designed and created with sporting/performance priorities. Thus, the Type-R and the Si would count.

Hardcore purist will say that sports cars are only RWD, 2 doors, 2 seats, manual transmission....

But if they say that, they must also be saying that these aren't sports cars either....
Every current Ferrari
Every current Lamborghini (minus Balboni)
Porsche's 911 Turbo
GT-R
STI and Evo
LF-A
....pretty much every modern performance car minus a few.

I could kinda see why one wouldn't put the Civic variants under the sports car title, but it just feels too strict for me. It's an opinion after all so not much else to say.

Glad you see my point. So I'm not the crazy one here

Originally Posted by Mr.Jay

Only the Type R would count

Si I don't think it does enough to be consider a true sports car

But you do agree that certain civic (like Type-R) do count as part of sports car.

Just say IF and only IF, FT86 made price range from $20k~$28k and have base like current base Civic and high end like Civic Type-R, how much profit Toyota/Subaru will make from this.

Ppl that want eco A-to-B cars can buy base to mid FT86 and all the racing fan can buy mid to high end FT86. Isn't that a win win situation?

Originally Posted by Zaku

Actually... I think "Sports Car" would mean a car designed from the ground up to be performance Oriented. Not a Car based on a passenger Sedan Vehicle. For Example S2000 and Civic Type R the S2000 is a pure n true sports car. A Civic Type R is considered a Performance car, Like a EVO and STI are technically Rally cars reversed engineered into Passenger sedans. I hope this makes sense.

I do see your point... but isn't Type-R series are made to race. That's why it have R. If they just want performance, they just put Type S (like NSX Type S) instead of Type-R emblem.

also don't forget, Civic Type-R have beat S2k in the stock race before... but of course, driver makes a difference too

[Dimman]

I've posted before that Toyota should make a lower level, cheaper version with the stock, unmodified FB20 (145 hp), smaller wheels, less options. $18k. Sell it as the eco/environmental version to the masses that only want the looks.

I would actually probably buy this hypothetical version, as I will be putting my own wheels on it anyways, don't want to pay for a bunch of unnecessary options, and can turbo, or swap it later from the performance model that some noob wrecked. I've got the Supra for weekend power in the interim.

[EJ20]

Originally Posted by ichitaka05

I'm 27 going 28 thank you very much. I'm not teenager, so watch your mouth.

I'm amazed that how blind you are to see my point. Yes, you're right that Evo & STI are dying and I'm Subie fan, but they deserve to die, if they keep this ridiculous price range (yes, I know bout living cost blah blah blah). I don't care what you have seen in last 2 yrs. What's that gotta do with it? I see STI every single day more than Camaro or Stang. Is that prove anything? Hell no! That doesn't prove shit!

I see that Camaro sold 81k, well duh. It's second yr, of course it's gonna sell well. I gonna use tC for this example (Yes, tC). First yr they only sold 28k while second yr it sold 74k and kept that rec for few yrs and look now, last yr they only sold 15k. Camaro gonna follow exact same path and all the current muscle cars... well technically not all cuz Mustang is doing fairly well (still one of the worse rec within pass 11 yrs). While you claim "un-sport" civic is still in top 10 selling car for long time.

Which sound more profitable to Toyota/Subaru. Put high price to make sports car fan only buy it and sell well first few yrs and discontinue 9th yr like S2k (no offense to S2k owners). OR have price range that is in between and make their own class and keep the continuous high to mid selling like Miata.

I'm not financial specialist, but second option sound more profitable than first choice.

I don't care you think civic isn't sports car. That's not my problem, cuz that's your opinion. The fact doesn't change, Civic is part of sports car genre (not all, but certain civic anyways).

hey man, calm down! I do have the same issue with my friends who says that honda never made a sports car (ie, the type-r/rsx) and I just don't like arguing with them as sometimes they don't know (.....) they think fwd is lame? I know few good fwd cars that can do well as a sport car the civic is one of them and I don't care what others may say

I'm a rwd die hard, but if some car is priced good, light weight, and fun to drive, I will drive it even if its a fwd honda (I still remmeber my friends coments when I used to have eg6)
fwd, rwd, or awd these are all fast and fun to drive if you know what your doing so relax
hopfully the ft86 will not end as the S2000 (never driven one, but will have one at some point) but I really hope that the ft86 sells really well so that toyota make 2nd/3rd....ect gens

I really don't care if most buyer are teenagers as long as they make profit for toyota and belive me it will be in our favor in the future if we wanted a cheap light weight used sports car (as a donor or a track/race car) I don't want it to be expensive or has low sales so it may discontinue in 6th or 7th year