ACE A-350 dyno results - Did it deliver?

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by gtengr

You would look at everything related to ignition timing and see that the engine is protecting itself from knock during the torque dip if your theory was true.

So is timing flat across the rev range? I dunno.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by nikitopo

You have answers and these are not assumptions. It looks that Toyota insisted to keep the dip and have a more economic and environmental friendly car. They never wanted to fix the dip. Maybe to provide a refinement, but never to fix. This is the most official reply you can get:

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showp...8&postcount=51

Is that a common choice for manufacturers to design into a sports car?

[nikitopo]

Originally Posted by NoHaveMSG

So. Why. Is. There. No. Dyno. Of. A. Stock. Car. That. Has. Been. Tuned. By. The. Aftermarket. That. Has. No. Torque. Dip?

Why do you think everything should be done by software from the factory? Building a motor is basically a mechanical engineering subject, not a software engineering subject. If you cannot understand the latter difference we cannot discuss.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by NoHaveMSG

So. Why. Is. There. No. Dyno. Of. A. Stock. Car. That. Has. Been. Tuned. By. The. Aftermarket. That. Has. No. Torque. Dip?

I don't know how much more simple to put it then that. Not trying to flame you, or say that your wrong. But if there is not an aftermarket tuner that has removed the dip on a stock car I would say this is not true. There are plenty of examples of tuned stock cars. Still have the dip.

Man I am really sorry to the OP. I always thought the ACE header was kind of over blown but after seeing all the charts, without even bothering to look at the numbers, it obviously works well.

His claim was the dip was designed, whether through tuning, exhaust system, intake system, valve timing, or a combination of things. If it is true then only trying to tune it out would work if they only did it through a tune.

[nikitopo]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

Is that a common choice for manufacturers to design into a sports car?

Do you have any idea what Toyota was selling before this?


Anyway, this is it guys. Have a nice evening and a good morning for me

[cyde01]

Originally Posted by justinco

I finished up my dyno comparison with the ACE A-350 header versus my previous Revworks UEL setup. I'll post the full video and then some of the graphs and things here if you just want the nitty gritty The video does, however, contain all my thoughts on the how's and why's of the results, too much to type.

Notes: These tests were done at Denver altitude, so dyno weather correction is in effect. My estimation is 1%-2% deviation give or take, based on my experience doing sessions at this dyno the past 4 years, on 3 different cars. RPM's are not exact due to it being difficult to exactly align the dyno with the car, but you get the idea. It is also a Mustang dyno. Enjoy

Mods for the pre-ACE baseline dyno session:
Blitz drop-in filter (2017)
Perrin inlet tube (2017)
Revworks UEL header (ceramic coated)
Perrin overpipe (ceramic coated)
Berk HFC front-pipe
Custom 2.5' exhaust, stock resonator, Magnaflow muffler

Mods for the ACE dyno session:
Same as above except swapped Revworks UEL & Perrin OP for ACE A-350 w/ CSG Spec ceramic coating. Re-tuned by Zach @ Delicious.

Image 1: ACE (solid) versus Revworks/Perrin (dotted)
Image 2: ACE (solid) versus bone stock 2017 BRZ (dotted)
Image 3: Fun little heat map to show power differences every 100rpms

good audio, good lighting, solid episode! I would suggest adding a music bed during the talking portion and keep it low as well so it doesn't drown out your talking. But for the most part turning into a solid youtube show!

[NoHaveMSG]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

His claim was the dip was designed, whether through tuning, exhaust system, intake system, valve timing, or a combination of things. If it is true then only trying to tune it out would work if they only did it through a tune.

I'm an illiterate dumbass sometimes......

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

I don't know if they did it for economy. It is certainly possible, and I have even said that same theory in the past, but it was only conjecture. What evidence is there for that? If they cared so much about mileage to create a torque dip then why would they change the final drive on the 2017 to be more aggressive?

I'm of the belief that the torque dip is a product of a 12.5:1 compression motor trying to avoid knock, something that could be alleviated with a long tube catless header, but they need a precat, and they need to heat the precat fast during cold starts for emissions, something that a long tube header doesn't allow.

It wasn't done for economy. It is the byproduct of Subaru/Toyota trying to get 200hp out of a 2 liter engine, that still meets modern emissions standards.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

Sorry, I'm fairly naive about the details of tuning...

Are you saying the Motec system doesn't use the knock sensors to automatically adjust timing/etc to avoid knock?...that the Motec system only runs on set parameters like open tune only (maf only)?...did I butcher that?

A Motec can be tuned to, quite literally, do whatever you want, however you want, (and of course, bad combinations can have disastrous results).

[Harey]

Originally Posted by Harey

Correct, either way it's not just in the tune as someone else said previously. In another thread on here all they did was punch out the internals of the cat and the torque dip was gone. Don't think it gets any more conclusive than that.

One more time:
In another thread on here all they did was punch out the internals of the cat in the headers and the torque dip was gone.

The torque dip is caused by the cat in the headers. The cat was needed to meet emissions.

Why dont they revise it in a later model, because emissions are a MASSIVE pain and very expensive. Once it has passed, just leave it alone.

[steve99]

If you have a NA car with standard sensors you can only use the inputs provided by those sensors regardless of if your uding opensource tuning ecutek or motec. Your also limited by the engine dynamics ie intake pirt runner sizes valve sizes, cam lift combustion chamber design etc. So theirs only so much you can tune. The factory engineers also have constraints of fuel economy emissions and noise vibration harshness and more. Aftermarket tuners dont need to consider some of those. Removing the cat in the header is a big advantage.

Dyno below is a uel header, stock cars do about 100-105kw on same dyno

[Lantanafrs2]

So I'm wondering if something that lessens the torque dip from the top of the motor ie power blocks will have the ecu pull timing after a while?

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by nikitopo

Do you have any idea what Toyota was selling before this?


Anyway, this is it guys. Have a nice evening and a good morning for me

I think it was the MR2, Supra, Corrola and Celica, and from Lexus, the LFA, LC500, ISF, GSF, RCF, SC Soarer and SC430 and from Scion the tC which is a stretch.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

A Motec can be tuned to, quite literally, do whatever you want, however you want, (and of course, bad combinations can have disastrous results).

Sounds scary