Miata to BRZ

[Adam_L]

I'm hearing what you're saying, crystal.

Understanding as best I can your perspective, and obviously already knowing my perspective(s) , to me 4cyl vs. 4cyl …. there is a slight difference in each cars performance but it's slight and you're splitting hairs.

Now a days, if you spend at/under $50k on a new car, one of two things tend to occur:

1. high hp/torque ( I'm thinking american muscle ….Dodge, Chevy Camero, Mustang… larger V6 or V8) or even a 350z /370z , but crappy handling. Even with going the aftermarket route with coil-overs, spend $1-2k on suspension… it can only get so good since it's all about how a car is designed from the start, which is what mostly matters (geometry, low center of gravity… blahs blahs). Could be $35k- 50k …. you have to pay for Power … now a days, and pay for it at the pump.

2. Great handling , however lower HP/torque( 200/150) …. i.e. Miata / Twins. $25-28k

Car manufactures figured this one out several years ago……and not much is going to change in the future in this price range. Spend $85k-115k new before taxes/title ( i.e. Porsche Cayman S , 911 C2S or C4S or GTS) ….. now you've got the best of all worlds.

[Poodles]

Originally Posted by NCtoBRZ

I think you misunderstood my original point and it sent the conversation into left field. My point in mentioning the S2000 was to demonstrate that the BRZ was not the first high-revving 4 cylinder that I’ve driven, so I wasn’t expecting much low to mid range punch... but the twins are lacking throughout the powerband. Even the 167 horsepower 4 cylinder in the NC Miata has much more satisfying power delivery as does the 155 horsepower piece in the ND Miata. It’s just a bit... odd how weak the lump in the BRZ feels given that it has a decent output for an NA 4 cylinder of 205 horsepower.

If it was “all about speed” I wouldn’t have owned a long line of small, light 4 cylinder cars. The BRZ handles beautifully, which is why I am still strongly considering it despite the lackluster power delivery.

Keep in mind the new one you drove might not be ideal. Good example, mine when I bought it had 11 miles on it. The pedal was weird and power was odd compared to the demo car I drove in 2013. I decided it was just me, and it was break in, etc. Knowing what i know now, it's simply the car wasn't driven enough for the fuel trim maps, pedal position, etc to learn fully.

Not to mention adding a header and E85 + tune to the mix...

Depends on your goals for this car. Even stock I found it fun, but I've never been known to keep my cars stock. "Designed by comity" generally means "boring."

[NCtoBRZ]

Originally Posted by Adam_L

I'm hearing what you're saying, crystal.

Understanding as best I can your perspective, and obviously already knowing my perspective(s) , to me 4cyl vs. 4cyl …. there is a slight difference in each cars performance but it's slight and you're splitting hairs.

Now a days, if you spend at/under $50k on a new car, one of two things tend to occur:

1. high hp/torque ( I'm thinking american muscle ….Dodge, Chevy Camero, Mustang… larger V6 or V8) or even a 350z /370z , but crappy handling. Even with going the aftermarket route with coil-overs, spend $1-2k on suspension… it can only get so good since it's all about how a car is designed from the start, which is what mostly matters (geometry, low center of gravity… blahs blahs). Could be $35k- 50k …. you have to pay for Power … now a days, and pay for it at the pump.

2. Great handling , however lower HP/torque( 200/150) …. i.e. Miata / Twins. $25-28k

Car manufactures figured this one out several years ago……and not much is going to change in the future in this price range. Spend $85k-115k new before taxes/title ( i.e. Porsche Cayman S , 911 C2S or C4S or GTS) ….. now you've got the best of all worlds.

Well... as far as numbers go (lateral Gs and the like) the latest generation mustangs and Camaros actually handle quite well. It’s true that heavy cars like those mentioned above will never have the driving feel (actual handling specs aside) that the BRZ or Miata have, and that’s what sells low-powered cars such as these. I think my original point can be restated as I don’t feel that the fault with the twins is the AMOUNT of power so much as HOW the power is delivered... again, the 167 hp in my NC Miata felt like more than enough.

Originally Posted by Poodles

Keep in mind the new one you drove might not be ideal. Good example, mine when I bought it had 11 miles on it. The pedal was weird and power was odd compared to the demo car I drove in 2013. I decided it was just me, and it was break in, etc. Knowing what i know now, it's simply the car wasn't driven enough for the fuel trim maps, pedal position, etc to learn fully.

Not to mention adding a header and E85 + tune to the mix...

Depends on your goals for this car. Even stock I found it fun, but I've never been known to keep my cars stock. "Designed by comity" generally means "boring."

Hopefully that is the case (break-in, the ECU learning optimal fuel maps, etc.) and the engine would feel more alive after some driving. I wouldn’t likely make performance modifications other than stickier tires after the originals wear out... and maybe eventually a mild tune just to smooth out the power dip in the mid range.

[Prodigalson]

Definitely agree. I have a MSM (Mazdaspeed Miata). For pure driving fun, it's a good choice. As a really fun daily driver, the twins win...

[Rampage]

Originally Posted by Adam_L

I'm hearing what you're saying, crystal.

Understanding as best I can your perspective, and obviously already knowing my perspective(s) , to me 4cyl vs. 4cyl …. there is a slight difference in each cars performance but it's slight and you're splitting hairs.

Now a days, if you spend at/under $50k on a new car, one of two things tend to occur:

1. high hp/torque ( I'm thinking american muscle ….Dodge, Chevy Camero, Mustang… larger V6 or V8) or even a 350z /370z , but crappy handling. Even with going the aftermarket route with coil-overs, spend $1-2k on suspension… it can only get so good since it's all about how a car is designed from the start, which is what mostly matters (geometry, low center of gravity… blahs blahs). Could be $35k- 50k …. you have to pay for Power … now a days, and pay for it at the pump.

2. Great handling , however lower HP/torque( 200/150) …. i.e. Miata / Twins. $25-28k

Car manufactures figured this one out several years ago……and not much is going to change in the future in this price range. Spend $85k-115k new before taxes/title ( i.e. Porsche Cayman S , 911 C2S or C4S or GTS) ….. now you've got the best of all worlds.

Seriously? When was the last time you drove a Mustang or Camaro? Crappy handling? Yeah, they weigh a couple tons and you can feel it but those things handle great if you are talking about cornering and transitions. What car won the the D Street Solo National Championship?

I like lightweight sportscars myself but the days when American pony cars could not chew up the curves ended about 20 years ago.

[ermax]

Originally Posted by Rampage

Seriously? When was the last time you drove a Mustang or Camaro? Crappy handling? Yeah, they weigh a couple tons and you can feel it but those things handle great if you are talking about cornering and transitions. What car won the the D Street Solo National Championship?

I like lightweight sportscars myself but the days when American pony cars could not chew up the curves ended about 20 years ago.

I took a very long sabbatical from AutoX. I was fairly consistent from 1996 to 2010 but then stopped until I just recently got the FRS. I was shocked at the number of Camaros and Mustangs out there now. It used to be just a few at each event and they weren't all that competitive. Now they are kicking ass. They are big and heavy but the way they move you wouldn't know it. There was one in D Stock with me and he beat me by 1.5 secs if I recall. I'm on 500tw crap tires that came on the car so it's hard to even beat a Yogo. Can't wait to get some real tires on here so I can try to beat this Mustang. There is an event tomorrow but I think I'm going to pass until I scrap these crap tires.

[TheRoops]

I think the myth continues because stupid drivers get fancy with a heavier, more prevalent car and can't handle it and we see the results.

[Adam_L]

Originally Posted by Rampage

Seriously? When was the last time you drove a Mustang or Camaro? .

I never had, probably never will. I've read enough, and I've spoken to owners of those cars.

I'm a Toyota / Subaru .... possibly P-car guy, thru and thru. As long as it's fun to drive, light, nimble , no crappy mpg, well made , RWD (possibly AWD) sports cars. That's what I like, so that's what I'll stick with in the future.

[NCtoBRZ]

Originally Posted by Adam_L

I never had, probably never will. I've read enough, and I've spoken to owners of those cars.

I'm a Toyota / Subaru .... possibly P-car guy, thru and thru. As long as it's fun to drive, light, nimble , no crappy mpg, well made , RWD (possibly AWD) sports cars. That's what I like, so that's what I'll stick with in the future.

That’s great that you like light, nimble RWD sports cars... most of us on here do and that’s why we have one of the twins. However, it’d probably work better for your future half-page arguments if you actually knew something about the cars that you are preaching about. You original implication that all 4 cylinders are basically the same and that you most go V6 or V8 to have a nice powerband makes it seem as if you’ve only driven a couple of 4 cylinder cars and declared yourself an expert.

[Adam_L]

Nope, I've never driven a US made car....at least not on a daily basis to know it's quirks, performance, etc. I've only " owned" 4 cylinder cars, two V6 trucks, and one ( sort of two) V8 truck. No one truly 100% owns their vehicle, as you still have to pay registration ( a form of tax) and insurance yearly if the vehicle is being operated.

I've been in various I4, H4, I5, H6, I6, V6, and V8 vehicles. Even one 3cyl Dahatsu. I cannot say I've been a passenger and/ or driven everything ever created by man. That will never happen in my lifetime, and I'm content with that.

I'm just talking about what I prefer, due to the above reasons and how much energy it consumes ( yes, less energy is preferred when at all possible) to then propel the occupants down the roadway at a given rate of speed.

[Adam_L]

Plus I had 3 years of auto shop in HS. I learned a thing or two....actually worked on my own vehicle as a Jr / Sr. Does that count for something? I didn't have a daddy at the time to teach me a thing or two under the hood, but my auto shop teacher was/ is very knowledgeable

[ermax]

Originally Posted by Adam_L

Plus I had 3 years of auto shop in HS. I learned a thing or two....actually worked on my own vehicle as a Jr / Sr. Does that count for something? I didn't have a daddy at the time to teach me a thing or two under the hood, but my auto shop teacher was/ is very knowledgeable

So in high school they taught you that only a Japanese 4 cylinder engine is worth a crap and you simply trust this without any first hand experience with anything but a jap 4?

[olsonpg]

3 years of auto shop in HS. Boys pack it up you ain't getting through to this one.

[Adam_L]

Originally Posted by ermax

So in high school they taught you that only a Japanese 4 cylinder engine is worth a crap and you simply trust this without any first hand experience with anything but a jap 4?

In the early '90s. Auto shop teacher didn't say that one manufacture was any better then the other. They are all man made mechanical objects ( pre OBD II). He taught us the fundamentals of engine internals, what does what.

In general, at the time if you owned a Nissan/datsun, Toyota, Honda, or Mitsubishi 4cyl , 99% of the people we knew didn't have any major issues with them ....the first 100-150k miles, just regular maintenance. There were local business owners with late '80s, early '90s Ford trucks at the time that were having major engine / tranny issues....with vehicles under 60k miles.

It's all fairly relative. I suppose if you owned a late 70's / early '80s 911, certain parts may be more rock solid ( say last 10-15% longer) then the same functional part on say a Toyota Celica of the same era.....however the 911 part will cost more $.

In general, the 4cyl will be more fuel efficient ....then even a smaller V6 ( Honda did it on some of their vehicles...like the Pilot, where at cruising...50+ mph, it would shut down the two middle cylinders....so you are burning 4 cylinders at freeway speeds). Even so, 4 cylinder is still more fuel efficient