Subaruwrxfan's WRB BRZ Limited

[bimmerboy]

Just watched your latest video- Wanted to say a couple of things.

Thanks for being honest. I too have been cross-shopping the '13 Mustang GT, and your video review has me wondering again.. Its refreshing to see someone that is giving both objective and subjective reviews of the car, because at the end of the day, its the mix of both that makes a car special or not.

Like you pointed out, the BRZ is a pure handling machine, a scalpel if you will, however in true daily-driving scenarios (atleast in the USA), this is very hard to exploit.

I used to own a wrx (stage 2) w/ no handling mods, and even though on paper it wasn't the best handling car stock, boy was it fun! The boxer rumble accompanied with the rush of torque and power made it soo much fun every day. Much easier to exploit power on a daily basis than handling capabilities on public roads I think.

I see you are debating spending some $$ on power mods to give the car more soul or character. I would caution you that many of these power adders will only exploit the high-revving, full-tilt nature of the 2.0 engine and car as well. I think it's really a different beast looking at the mustang and the 5.0 coyote engine. That instant torque and sound is simply intoxicating and is the reason why so many people love their muscle-cars. Paired with a respectable interior/exterior, and decent handling, I think in DD situations it would be a better car for you.

I think if you are okay with having a high-tuned weekend warrior, the brz+ some power adders would be the best move, as it would probably have higher overall limits when driving. However if you are really looking for a DD that can give you a visceral experience literally everyday, as much as the forums say otherwise, the new mustang 5.0 is really a great machine. Many will hate on it online however in reality, the '12 and '13 models are really great overall cars... Its a tough decision because on paper the two are hardly comparable (small light-weight coupe vs american muscle car), but like I said earlier, part of having an enjoyable car is one that delivers subjectively AND objectively.... For a good feel on what it's like to drive one of the new mustangs, look at edmunds.com long-term blog on their '11 5.0 6speed, literally every blog has the reviewer praising how fun it is to drive every-day... They also have a FR-S now which is interesting to see too.

Really at the end of the day, its about finding a car that YOU like the best, no matter what forums/magazines/specs say...

Keep us posted on what you end up doing, I am interested if the power adders will solve your problem!

[ill86]

Congrats! I'm also from Pittsburgh area. If you want to take it on track let me know. (circuit, auto x ,gymkhana)

[ill86]

Originally Posted by bimmerboy

Like you pointed out, the BRZ is a pure handling machine, a scalpel if you will, however in true daily-driving scenarios (atleast in the USA), this is very hard to exploit.
.

I disagree ... It makes plenty of useable torque and it's smooth. It works very well on the street or track environment..

Part of the reason for the torque dip is to increase "drive-ability" below 4,000 rpm.

[Max Schnell]

Originally Posted by Subaruwrxfan

Lol now you guys have me worried. I've been hearing that a car gets some personality after I modify it to my liking. When I bought my Legacy GT 5 years ago though, I don't remember feeling this "meh" about the car after a month of owning it. I did modify the car that helped me like it more for sure, but even in stock form I didn't really get bored with it. Being indecisive sucks.

After watching that video and thinking about your complaints I think this is not the right car for you.

Alot of your statements is about not having any "drama" with this car. This is true with cars that are very well setup to perform because to have the "drama" you seem to be looking for you need a car that has power and is setup a bit loose so it will waggle its tail and snort and threaten when you put the throttle down.

In my opinion the car for you would be a C63 AMG. That car has drama out the rear. Each time you step on it the car tries to either scare you or kill you. It has wonderful sounds, gobs of torque and is not a huge boat like car. That car can be fun on a daily basis since you can feel the drama at under speed limit speeds. Just have to turn down the traction control a bit. Only downside to that car is MPG. Did you know that car is a flash tune away from 513hp too?

I think you will be disappointed in modding for power in a car like the BRZ. It is ultimately limited by the 2.0 liter 4 cyl designed for NA application. Having been down this path of trying to make a slower car faster I can tell you that the cost will be more than you expect and you will have headaches to deal with regardless of how good the aftermarket stuff is supposed to be.

[Wes]

wait for a supercharger kit to come out, i think that will give u some drama haha, thats what im planning to do, or a turbo

[OrbitalEllipses]

Crappy tires? They're nearly $800/set for replacement.

[switchlanez]

Originally Posted by Max Schnell

Having been down this path of trying to make a slower car faster I can tell you that the cost will be more than you expect and you will have headaches to deal with regardless of how good the aftermarket stuff is supposed to be.

What kind of headaches have you dealt with when doing this and how did they come about?

[r1eater]

Originally Posted by ill86

I disagree ... It makes plenty of useable torque and it's smooth. It works very well on the street or track environment..

Part of the reason for the torque dip is to increase "drive-ability" below 4,000 rpm.

Yeah but I think what he is talking about is that it doesnt give you that kick in the pants feel. Thats actually something I missed about the STI vs the 370z, the Z was faster on the top end and from a hwy punch but it was so smooth that it didnt give me the oh crap I'm hauling feeling. I'd be crusing going 100mph and it was so planted and so smooth. It was taller geared than the subby too because at 80 my STI was wanting another gear.

Also I dont think it has to be high HP, the Cooper S I had was plenty of fun to DD, I loved the go kart feel and it wasnt the fastest thing in the world but it gave me a rush daily.

It also depends what cars you had before, I saw someone post they came from a camary to the BRZ and they thought it was awesome and had great power.

I'm really hoping the STI or TRD version has more kick in the pants and is something that can be bolted on to existing BRZ's

[Subaruwrxfan]

Originally Posted by Nospleen

I would cut your losses now while the cars are still in high demand. If they ever make an STI version, it should be right up your alley. I think you have given it a fair shot and have been very objective in your reasoning. I'd hate to see you feel the same after dropping 4k on some bolt ons and a SC...

Thanks again for this thread and all of your videos. Best thread on this forum, in my opinion.

Thanks a lot, I'm gonna do a few mods and hang on to it a little longer, I've only owned it for a month, but if it still fails to impress me, I'll return the car to stock and sell it.

Originally Posted by bimmerboy

Just watched your latest video- Wanted to say a couple of things.

Thanks for being honest. I too have been cross-shopping the '13 Mustang GT, and your video review has me wondering again.. Its refreshing to see someone that is giving both objective and subjective reviews of the car, because at the end of the day, its the mix of both that makes a car special or not.

Like you pointed out, the BRZ is a pure handling machine, a scalpel if you will, however in true daily-driving scenarios (atleast in the USA), this is very hard to exploit.

I used to own a wrx (stage 2) w/ no handling mods, and even though on paper it wasn't the best handling car stock, boy was it fun! The boxer rumble accompanied with the rush of torque and power made it soo much fun every day. Much easier to exploit power on a daily basis than handling capabilities on public roads I think.

I see you are debating spending some $$ on power mods to give the car more soul or character. I would caution you that many of these power adders will only exploit the high-revving, full-tilt nature of the 2.0 engine and car as well. I think it's really a different beast looking at the mustang and the 5.0 coyote engine. That instant torque and sound is simply intoxicating and is the reason why so many people love their muscle-cars. Paired with a respectable interior/exterior, and decent handling, I think in DD situations it would be a better car for you.

I think if you are okay with having a high-tuned weekend warrior, the brz+ some power adders would be the best move, as it would probably have higher overall limits when driving. However if you are really looking for a DD that can give you a visceral experience literally everyday, as much as the forums say otherwise, the new mustang 5.0 is really a great machine. Many will hate on it online however in reality, the '12 and '13 models are really great overall cars... Its a tough decision because on paper the two are hardly comparable (small light-weight coupe vs american muscle car), but like I said earlier, part of having an enjoyable car is one that delivers subjectively AND objectively.... For a good feel on what it's like to drive one of the new mustangs, look at edmunds.com long-term blog on their '11 5.0 6speed, literally every blog has the reviewer praising how fun it is to drive every-day... They also have a FR-S now which is interesting to see too.

Really at the end of the day, its about finding a car that YOU like the best, no matter what forums/magazines/specs say...

Keep us posted on what you end up doing, I am interested if the power adders will solve your problem!

Great post, thanks for that. I keep thinking that the Mustang will be more exciting. After driving one yesterday, they are a lot of fun, but so is the BRZ. I'm just scared that I'm in the "grass is always greener on the other side" kind of mentality. So I'm gonna give the BRZ more time to grow on me. The Mustang could be equally fun, but might just be more appealing to me right now simply because I don't own one. I dunno.

Originally Posted by ill86

I disagree ... It makes plenty of useable torque and it's smooth. It works very well on the street or track environment..

Part of the reason for the torque dip is to increase "drive-ability" below 4,000 rpm.

Well, like I said in the video, this engine isn't exciting until 5k+. Sure, it makes decent torque down low, but it's not exciting. For this car to excite you, you have to wind it up. Which is fine if you never have traffic in front of you, but that's rare in Pittsburgh. The Mustang pulls just as hard at 2k as it does at 6k. So I could get the same feeling just cruising below 4k all day as I would if I was redlining it. Where in the BRZ, it's a snooze fest below 4k.

Originally Posted by Max Schnell

After watching that video and thinking about your complaints I think this is not the right car for you.

Alot of your statements is about not having any "drama" with this car. This is true with cars that are very well setup to perform because to have the "drama" you seem to be looking for you need a car that has power and is setup a bit loose so it will waggle its tail and snort and threaten when you put the throttle down.

In my opinion the car for you would be a C63 AMG. That car has drama out the rear. Each time you step on it the car tries to either scare you or kill you. It has wonderful sounds, gobs of torque and is not a huge boat like car. That car can be fun on a daily basis since you can feel the drama at under speed limit speeds. Just have to turn down the traction control a bit. Only downside to that car is MPG. Did you know that car is a flash tune away from 513hp too?

I think you will be disappointed in modding for power in a car like the BRZ. It is ultimately limited by the 2.0 liter 4 cyl designed for NA application. Having been down this path of trying to make a slower car faster I can tell you that the cost will be more than you expect and you will have headaches to deal with regardless of how good the aftermarket stuff is supposed to be.

Your first paragraph is right on. I bought the BRZ knowing it had a small engine and skinny tires on the back, hoping that the car would feel "on edge" all the time and be exciting, but as I've discovered, even with the small engine and skinny tires, the car is still far too capable to be fun in the every day stuff. I want a car that feels skiddish and edgy, and the Mustang seems to fit that very well. The Mercedes is nice, but I want a 2 door car, and don't think the new C63 2-door is worth the money. To me, it's just a more luxurious and modern Mustang in it's attitude, but the Mustang has enough luxury for me and the retro looks of the Mustang are part of what makes it so alluring to me.

I really appreciate everyone's thoughts. Please keep them coming, it helps a lot.

[Subaruwrxfan]

Originally Posted by OrbitalEllipses

Crappy tires? They're nearly $800/set for replacement.

I mean crappy for performance. They're grand touring tires. And there's plenty of overpriced tires out there. My Sumitomo HTR ZIII tires on my Legacy are half the price of the factory Bridgestone Potenza RE-01A and perform at about 95% of what the Bridgestones do.

[Max Schnell]

Originally Posted by switchlanez

What kind of headaches have you dealt with when doing this and how did they come about?

I have never had an aftermarket power adder item work perfectly (except a simple intake and that took three to get the rigth one) or not cause some other type of unexpected issues or simple annoyances like vibration or unexpected noise.

1. NA bolt-ons on a small displacement motor will not usually provide you the power/dollar satisfaction in the long run. It will shift the powerband substantially so you feel even less grunt around town in cruising speeds, makes way more noise, vibrate lose everything in the car over time and you still get walked by a stock mustang. After all thats done you will decide hell with this and go for turboing or supercharging.

2. Turbocharging or supercharging a NA motor is walking a tightrope while depending on someone else's skills. One misstep and you have a blown motor to deal with. Tuning is key but a good tuner is hard to find and often times require huge distance of traveling and no guarantees. You may end up spending money on two to three setups, five or six tuners, and one or two blown motors before finding the right setup that makes the power and has the safety. For that money I could've bought a faster car to start with.

3. Aftermarket power also strains the stock components. I have had the turbo melt stuff I did not expect and extra heat causing the cooling system to require upgrades, then the fuel system due to leaning out, then piggyback hiccups that drove me to get a fully retuned ECU, only to find out the mail in tune sucked and needed another ECU tune... Broken output shafts, finding out head gasket really was not strong enough, stock LSD diff could not handle double the power, funky smells because something is melting somewhere, leaking exhaust due to the aftermarket unit not braced just right and breaking the seals......

With enough time the aftermarket stuff will either prove itself or be weeded out by the users. Unfortunately when you are dealing with a new setup on a newer car the only people who end up paying are the users. I am not interested in being in the forefront of blowing my money down the proverbial drain and dealing with the downtime and frustration of wondering what the hell is wrong this time!

Another thing...modding is an addiction, you will never feel enough power once you dip your toes in. If you have a shop its one thing, but if you don't then be prepared to be frustrated at some point.

Oh and none of my cars are stock, not even the Rav4...

[BMWDavid]

I'll throw my two cents in this. I'm 57 years old and have owned and have driven many truely desirable cars over the years. I currently have an '06 VW GTI/DSG which has been one of the nicest all around cars I've ever owned. I've always wanted a Porsche 911 (air-cooled). Found a very low mileage example six years ago, its a 1989 Carrera 3.2 coupe. The last of the torsion bar cars. It is a blast to drive and full of charactor. No it is not fast based on todays standards. But in 1985-89 it was one of the quickest cars you could buy. I'll always have this car. It has drama, sounds, smells, handling quirks and just look at it!

I've driven many late model Porsche 911's and while they are great and and if I could afford one I'd might have one, but no lost love not having one. Fast, yes...great handling, yes but somewhat sterile.

I take up all opportunities to drive neat cars, new and used. Last year had a chance to drive a C6-Z06. It was a trade at the local Chevy dealer. They know me so I was given the keys and out I went. Massive power and plently of drama as you seem to mention in your last video. This car would break the rears loose in second gear from 2500 rpm. It was simply one of the most powerful cars I've driven. But in the end after driving it for an hour and about 40 miles I knew I'd get tired of it after a few months (also see below comment). I've driven many C6 Vettes before and after this but for me the biggest let down is the crappy seats. There is no way (for me) that I could sit in the seats more than an hour.

Just before doing my March 1st pre-order on the BRZ I was this close to ordering a '13 GT500 Shelby Mustang. I'd driven a demo '12 model and was and thought this is a really fantastic car and the '13 with 650HP would be just amazing. About a week before March 1st I started to doubt my thought to order a GT500. Drove a demo '12 GT Mustang that was on a lot nearby (I know its not close to a GT500!) and started to realize that the GT500 at almost $70,000 the way I'd order one was not worth it to me. Even a GT at mid to high $30's seemed doubtful. Don't get me wrong...both Mustangs represent great value on a bang for the buck but in the end the cheap cabin and the size/feel just was not what I was looking for.

Then comes along the BRZ. I placed order on March 1st did a lot of folks here. Then as people got their cars some spoke of the torque dip and weak power. I thought that I probably would not like the car. Then after what seemed forever my car arrives June 13th. Headed to dealer to look it over and take out for a drive before deciding to purchase.

Now this what what I'm looking for. Light, small... scalpel like. I bought it. Since then as the miles pile on (at 1500 now) I've pushed the rev limit higher and just love the sound and feel of the car and engine as it approaches 6,000+ rpm. The whole car is the package! So much like the Lotus Elise I drove a couple of years ago. You can grab it by the scruff of its neck and just throw it about. Love it! A blast! Will I get tired of it? Perhaps, then I'll look at the field and drive some cars again. I used to suffer from the grass is greener on the other side of the fence like you mention. I usuall fix that with a drive in a demo car.

No its not fast but it is not slow. I too have a torque memory in my GTI! The GTI is so torquey and squirty it is really neat to drive. Since getting my BRZ and after not driving my GTI for a few days, the GTI almost at first feels like a 5 series BMW!

In the end all I can say is you have to satisfy your own desires in what a car needs to be.

[Subaruwrxfan]

Originally Posted by BMWDavid

I'll throw my two cents in this. I'm 57 years old and have owned and have driven many truely desirable cars over the years. I currently have an '06 VW GTI/DSG which has been one of the nicest all around cars I've ever owned. I've always wanted a Porsche 911 (air-cooled). Found a very low mileage example six years ago, its a 1989 Carrera 3.2 coupe. The last of the torsion bar cars. It is a blast to drive and full of charactor. No it is not fast based on todays standards. But in 1985-89 it was one of the quickest cars you could buy. I'll always have this car. It has drama, sounds, smells, handling quirks and just look at it!

I've driven many late model Porsche 911's and while they are great and and if I could afford one I'd might have one, but no lost love not having one. Fast, yes...great handling, yes but somewhat sterile.

I take up all opportunities to drive neat cars, new and used. Last year had a chance to drive a C6-Z06. It was a trade at the local Chevy dealer. They know me so I was given the keys and out I went. Massive power and plently of drama as you seem to mention in your last video. This car would break the rears loose in second gear from 2500 rpm. It was simply one of the most powerful cars I've driven. But in the end after driving it for an hour and about 40 miles I knew I'd get tired of it after a few months (also see below comment). I've driven many C6 Vettes before and after this but for me the biggest let down is the crappy seats. There is no way (for me) that I could sit in the seats more than an hour.

Just before doing my March 1st pre-order on the BRZ I was this close to ordering a '13 GT500 Shelby Mustang. I'd driven a demo '12 model and was and thought this is a really fantastic car and the '13 with 650HP would be just amazing. About a week before March 1st I started to doubt my thought to order a GT500. Drove a demo '12 GT Mustang that was on a lot nearby (I know its not close to a GT500!) and started to realize that the GT500 at almost $70,000 the way I'd order one was not worth it to me. Even a GT at mid to high $30's seemed doubtful. Don't get me wrong...both Mustangs represent great value on a bang for the buck but in the end the cheap cabin and the size/feel just was not what I was looking for.

Then comes along the BRZ. I placed order on March 1st did a lot of folks here. Then as people got their cars some spoke of the torque dip and weak power. I thought that I probably would not like the car. Then after what seemed forever my car arrives June 13th. Headed to dealer to look it over and take out for a drive before deciding to purchase.

Now this what what I'm looking for. Light, small... scalpel like. I bought it. Since then as the miles pile on (at 1500 now) I've pushed the rev limit higher and just love the sound and feel of the car and engine as it approaches 6,000+ rpm. The whole car is the package! So much like the Lotus Elise I drove a couple of years ago. You can grab it by the scruff of its neck and just throw it about. Love it! A blast! Will I get tired of it? Perhaps, then I'll look at the field and drive some cars again. I used to suffer from the grass is greener on the other side of the fence like you mention. I usuall fix that with a drive in a demo car.

No its not fast but it is not slow. I too have a torque memory in my GTI! The GTI is so torquey and squirty it is really neat to drive. Since getting my BRZ and after not driving my GTI for a few days, the GTI almost at first feels like a 5 series BMW!

In the end all I can say is you have to satisfy your own desires in what a car needs to be.

Thanks for your post, that gave me a lot of insight. Both sides are making excellent points. I can see what many of you are saying about adding more mods might not make me love the BRZ. I do like the car a lot, no question about it. It's just whether I love the Mustang more. For me, I love the retro design of the Mustang interior, and the quality is really a lot better than the 2007 and 2008 Bullitt that I drove on test drives. Power delivery in the 2013 I drove was addicting and accessible the instant I hit the throttle, regardless of where I was at in the power band. A smile was literally just a 1 second-stab-of-the-gas away. The BRZ requires you work a lot harder to get your smiles, which I think is frustrating me. At the same time, I love being able to toss the BRZ into any corner and not have a doubt in my mind that it can handle it.

The indecision continues. I'm going for a drive. lol

[BMWDavid]

I forgot to mention...I too love the looks of the current Mustang. Everytime I see one a think man that is a great looking car. I start to think about one then I recall my driving them.

Not to say they are bad, not at all...I think they are great cars for those who the car meets their needs/wants.