twins vs last gen cayman?

[mrg666]

Originally Posted by strmshadow84

I think it would be worth it to get into a 981, at least for a little while. I love the combination of power/weight and balance of it, should at least try to go somewhere they offer to let you track it for a few laps.

I am sure it is one of the greatest cars to drive and I wouldn't miss a chance to test it. The power/weight ratio I have is 300hp/2800lbs. I think 981 is about the same or a little better?

Originally Posted by dowroa

Related tangent -- I see the C5 Corvette in the same demarcation with the current Camaro being the practical replacement.

Also, I still want to keep the C5z06 but I am hoping a BRZ PP would change my mind. I don't think it will. I think it would be an additive experience for a different purpose.

Yes, but Camaro is more like a traditional muscle car than a sports car - so bulky. I would say Corvette is still the only sports car of Chevrolet.

[funwheeldrive]

Originally Posted by mrg666

Yes, but Camaro is more like a traditional muscle car than a sports car - so bulky. I would say Corvette is still the only sports car of Chevrolet.

I'm not saying the Camaro is a sports car, but it is arguably one of the best handling cars under 100k. Not really something you would associate with the 'traditional' muscle car.

[mrg666]

Originally Posted by funwheeldrive

I'm not saying the Camaro is a sports car, but it is arguably one of the best handling cars under 100k. Not really something you would associate with the 'traditional' muscle car.

Well, feel free to call Camaro a sports car since that is what Chevrolet calls it, I have no objections. Now, are you saying that the base Camaro is in the same league in handling with twins and Cayman? Looking at it, that is a little hard to imagine such a bulky car has the precision in handling like a twin. Bravo to Chevrolet if that is so. But, no thanks

[strmshadow84]

Originally Posted by mrg666

Well, feel free to call Camaro a sports car since that is what Chevrolet calls it, I have no objections. Now, are you saying that the base Camaro is in the same league in handling with twins and Cayman? Looking at it, that is a little hard to imagine such a bulky car has the precision in handling like a twin. Bravo to Chevrolet if that is so. But, no thanks

Hmm... I have a 2ss, it definitely feels bully compared to the feel I get from the Cayman and FD. But I will say it definitely handle just about as well as the 981. I would probably say that it's definitely in the same league as the twin.

[mrg666]

Originally Posted by strmshadow84

Hmm... I have a 2ss, it definitely feels bully compared to the feel I get from the Cayman and FD. But I will say it definitely handle just about as well as the 981. I would probably say that it's definitely in the same league as the twin.

Interesting to hear from a driver who owns both a Cayman and Camaro. Thanks!

Camaro's center of gravity is at least 2 inches higher, weight is at least 500 lbs more, drag coefficient is .35 vs .27 of a twin. But it still handles equally well with Cayman and twins. Porsche, Toyota, and Subaru might have wasted their time with such optimizations, apparently. But those design goals give the sports car its characteristic look which I like and appreciate. Camaro doesn't have those design characteristics. I don't know how Chevy achieved that handling but the design is not appealing to me - it doesn't pass my "sports car" snobbery.

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by mrg666

Interesting to hear from a driver who owns both a Cayman and Camaro. Thanks!

Camaro's center of gravity is at least 2 inches higher, weight is at least 500 lbs more, drag coefficient is .35 vs .27 of a twin. But it still handles equally well with Cayman and twins. Porsche, Toyota, and Subaru might have wasted their time with such optimizations, apparently. But those design goals give the sports car its characteristic look which I like and appreciate. Camaro doesn't have those design characteristics. I don't know how Chevy achieved that handling but the design is not appealing to me - it doesn't pass my "sports car" snobbery.

The drag coefficient being low has very little to do with handling well. In fact it's probably the opposite. Also, center of gravity, while important, is mostly a marketing thing used when these cars came out.

[mrg666]

Originally Posted by fatoni

The drag coefficient being low has very little to do with handling well. In fact it's probably the opposite. Also, center of gravity, while important, is mostly a marketing thing used when these cars came out.

Agree that drag coefficient has more effect on top speed. But it doesn't make handling worse as you suggest. And, no, center of gravity, has a major effect on handling. Yeah, in the end, just slap the magnerides on that funny design and it handles so good.

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by mrg666

Agree that drag coefficient has more effect on top speed. But it doesn't make handling worse as you suggest. And, no, center of gravity, has a major effect on handling. Yeah, in the end, just slap the magnerides on that funny design and it handles so good.

Unless you consider down force is drag. Which having less of is bad for handling. The frs is closer to a prius than a race car in terms of drag. Cog is important in relation to roll center and stuff like that but it's not like they performed some amazing feat with this impossibly low cog.

[Yardjass]

Originally Posted by mrg666

I don't know how Chevy achieved that handling but the design is not appealing to me - it doesn't pass my "sports car" snobbery.

Really wide, sticky tires and well tuned magnetic suspension.

Originally Posted by mrg666

Agree that drag coefficient has more effect on top speed. But it doesn't make handling worse as you suggest. And, no, center of gravity, has a major effect on handling. Yeah, in the end, just slap the magnerides on that funny design and it handles so good.

It is kind of the opposite. Even without canards and a huge park bench wing, a lot of cars have small aero features that improve downforce, brake cooling, engine cooling, etc. These items increase drag but they also improve the car's performance, including handling.

[mrg666]

Originally Posted by fatoni

Unless you consider down force is drag. Which having less of is bad for handling. The frs is closer to a prius than a race car in terms of drag. Cog is important in relation to roll center and stuff like that but it's not like they performed some amazing feat with this impossibly low cog.

Down force creates drag but drag does not necessarily create down force. That is why airfoil shaped wings are used to create down force while the body of sports cars are designed with minimum drag. Airfoil shape minimizes drag while maximizing down force. A sports car's handling needs certain amount of down force and minimal drag. Prius is a good example since drag is minimized in that car for economy, while in a sports car like FR-S, drag is minimized for speed.

I didn't understand what you wrote about cog. Cog is always good for handling. There is nothing to argue about this. Check any "real" sports car you want. Check F1 cars, Indy cars, Le Mans cars, Ferrari, Porsche, Lamborghini, etc. See a design clue? Now go back look at Camaro again.

I'm done with discussing a car that I don't care about.

[brzaapi]

Just a quick thought on "Handling" from a guy who has tracked a 13 1LE Camaro, 987&981s and a few BRZs.

Grip and Handling are two very different things. As for what handling is, feel vs behavior. All these cars have some chops. The P-cars and the BRZ/FRS have much better feel over the Camaro...weight and size are hard to overcome. I would argue that the new Camaro 1LE has more grip than the 981 for sure. And, the Camaro actually has great handling characteristics for a car its size....but still a level below the BRZ and P-cars.

However, can't DENY the pure performance capability of the Camaro 1LE.

But again, GRIP and Handling are not the same thing. The BRZ handles, the Camaro Grips. Niether is right or wrong, just different attributes of two different cars.

[nikitopo]

I would say that the BRZ is a mountain car (handling). Only issue is that in high altitude the NA engine loses much power. Without many changes it cannot compete anywhere else.

[SUB-FT86]

I don't care what cars have the highest grip numbers. For me the Cayman/Boxster, 86 twins, Fiata twins and the Alfa 4C is the only cars made I think that's worth it on sale. Light, Low and RWD!

[dowroa]

Originally Posted by SUB-FT86

I don't care what cars have the highest grip numbers. For me the Cayman/Boxster, 86 twins, Fiata twins and the Alfa 4C is the only cars made I think that's worth it on sale. Light, Low and RWD!

Just curious.... why do you think the Alfa 4C is "worth it"?

Thanks!