Cobalt SS vs BRZ

[Slammillionaire]

Originally Posted by Yardjass

Front wheel drive economy car based "sports cars" are garbage.

Focus/Fiesta ST, Integra Type R, Mini S/JCW, Fiat 500 Abarth... the list goes on. All gr8 cars.

[Summerwolf]

Originally Posted by Slammillionaire

The Golf R, Focus/Fiesta ST, Focus RS, Integra Type R, Mini S/JCW, Fiat 500 Abarth... the list goes on. All gr8 cars.

He said FWD and you're throwing AWD cars in the mix......

[Slammillionaire]

Originally Posted by Summerwolf

He said FWD and you're throwing AWD cars in the mix......

oops!

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by Summerwolf

He said FWD and you're throwing AWD cars in the mix......

he said front wheel drive economy based cars. its reasonable to use awd cars that are based on fwd economy cars in this argument.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by Summerwolf

Unfortunately that is the fate of many "tuner" cars. Try finding a nice SRT4 anymore. In ten years it will be the twins. People buy them cheap, do stupid stuff to them, hold off on maintenance etc and they fall apart.

Try finding a nice twin NOW is hard unless you're willing to shell out extra to pick up one at a dealership owned by someone who treated it like a regular car. And even then it's hard, the nicest one I could find looked like it was on lowering springs the dealer didn't know about or willfully skipped in the ad writeup.

[funwheeldrive]

Originally Posted by Yardjass

Front wheel drive economy car based "sports cars" are garbage.

Originally Posted by strat61caster

Try finding a nice twin NOW is hard unless you're willing to shell out extra to pick up one at a dealership owned by someone who treated it like a regular car. And even then it's hard, the nicest one I could find looked like it was on lowering springs the dealer didn't know about or willfully skipped in the ad writeup.

You can find decent examples here on the classifieds. Sometimes the cleanest cars are on enthusiast forums because the owner actually gave a damn.

[dowroa]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

Try finding a nice twin NOW is hard unless you're willing to shell out extra to pick up one at a dealership owned by someone who treated it like a regular car. And even then it's hard, the nicest one I could find looked like it was on lowering springs the dealer didn't know about or willfully skipped in the ad writeup.

Been searching. Not hard. Looking only for Manual transmissions cars and eliminating anything with anything negative and searching Nation wide just for used cars on CarGurus only, I still easily have 438 cars to choose from (FR-S + BRZ).

From that list, there are still a ridiculous amount that show zero modification with under 40k miles (295). Even adding sub-20k, there is still a large pool (156).

Want hard? Find a 2005 STi that has under 40k miles that is completely stock (really stock, not claimed) and get back to me.

I have been looking for one of those (not in California) for about 10 years and have only found a handful. Even then, the amount of money wanted makes the process fruitless.

[Darth Khan]

Originally Posted by funwheeldrive

You can find decent examples here on the classifieds. Sometimes the cleanest cars are on enthusiast forums because the owner actually gave a damn.

And there is the other side of the coin. Enthusiast owners that FI the engine and beat the car to within an inch of its life. Then to add insult to injury they switch it back to N/A (selling the parts of course), and pretend they babied they car from day one.

The main issue is that most of the 'enthusiast' owners drive the car hard and secondly most of them have limited experience driving fast cars. While they 'learn' to handle the car they are eating away at the engine and transmission components.

I'm sure there are a few owners on the forums that are going to take my previous statement as a personal attack. That they know how to drive the car fast, that the car is designed to take abuse, etc, etc. All valid points but does not negate the fact that when buying second hand low cost sports car 'YOU DO NOT KNOW WHAT YOU ARE BUYING'

I would never purchase a second hand low cost sports car. (Unless I intended to race it). If you want to risk 15/20k on an unknown that's your choice. Personally if I could not afford one new I would save up my pennies and in the mean time stick to a low cost daily driver.

[funwheeldrive]

Originally Posted by dowroa

Been searching. Not hard. Looking only for Manual transmissions cars and eliminating anything with anything negative and searching Nation wide just for used cars on CarGurus only, I still easily have 438 cars to choose from (FR-S + BRZ).

From that list, there are still a ridiculous amount that show zero modification with under 40k miles (295). Even adding sub-20k, there is still a large pool (156).

Want hard? Find a 2005 STi that has under 40k miles that is completely stock (really stock, not claimed) and get back to me.

I have been looking for one of those (not in California) for about 10 years and have only found a handful. Even then, the amount of money wanted makes the process fruitless.

1. I'm sure there were less STis made than the twins so off the bat they will be more rare.

2. A 2005 STi is already 12 years old. Try finding a clean 2014 RS 1.0 FRS in the year 2026 and get back to me.

Originally Posted by Darth Khan

And there is the other side of the coin. Enthusiast owners that FI the engine and beat the car to within an inch of its life. Then to add insult to injury they switch it back to N/A (selling the parts of course), and pretend they babied they car from day one.

The main issue is that most of the 'enthusiast' owners drive the car hard and secondly most of them have limited experience driving fast cars. While they 'learn' to handle the car they are eating away at the engine and transmission components.

I'm sure there are a few owners on the forums that are going to take my previous statement as a personal attack. That they know how to drive the car fast, that the car is designed to take abuse, etc, etc. All valid points but does not negate the fact that when buying second hand low cost sports car 'YOU DO NOT KNOW WHAT YOU ARE BUYING'

I would never purchase a second hand low cost sports car. (Unless I intended to race it). If you want to risk 15/20k on an unknown that's your choice. Personally if I could not afford one new I would save up my pennies and in the mean time stick to a low cost daily driver.

True, you just have to be careful I guess. There are some owners on here who treat these cars like collectables and rarely drive them hard.

But yeah, in ten years it will be tough finding a clean one, unless you want to pay the ricer tax.

[dowroa]

Originally Posted by funwheeldrive

1. I'm sure there were less STis made than the twins so off the bat they will be more rare.

"Thank you for visiting the Subaru Web site and for your request. I was able to retrieve some production numbers for you.
We were unable to break the report down by colors, however, we did decipher the difference in wheels.
For the 2004 model year, we produced the following WRX STi Sedans:
2004 WRX STi Sedans with silver wheels - 4,427 units
2004 WRX STi Sedans with gold wheels - 2,783 units
TOTAL: 2004 WRX STi Sedans - 7,210 units
Best wishes,
Kelly Shinault
Subaru of America, Inc."

---

Subaru

BRZ

2016 4.141
2015 5.296
2014 7.504
2013 8.587
2012 4.144
---

2. A 2005 STi is already 12 years old. Try finding a clean 2014 RS 1.0 FRS in the year 2026 and get back to me.

*sets a timer*

The correct comparison is any 6MT BRZ, not a special model, as per original discussion. I didn't specify a 2007 Limited STi.

----
To the OP, I agree that the focused BRZ is something to be excited about. Personally, I am more excited for the potential and usability of this car when compared to cars with twice the horsepower.

[funwheeldrive]

Originally Posted by dowroa

"Thank you for visiting the Subaru Web site and for your request. I was able to retrieve some production numbers for you.
We were unable to break the report down by colors, however, we did decipher the difference in wheels.
For the 2004 model year, we produced the following WRX STi Sedans:
2004 WRX STi Sedans with silver wheels - 4,427 units
2004 WRX STi Sedans with gold wheels - 2,783 units
TOTAL: 2004 WRX STi Sedans - 7,210 units
Best wishes,
Kelly Shinault
Subaru of America, Inc."

---

Subaru

BRZ

2016 4.141
2015 5.296
2014 7.504
2013 8.587
2012 4.144
---



*sets a timer*

The correct comparison is any 6MT BRZ, not a special model, as per original discussion. I didn't specify a 2007 Limited STi.

----
.

In your original response you included CarMax results for both the FRS and BRZ. That's why I used 'twins' in my comment. The production numbers you used would be more than double that if you had included the FRS.

But, you're right I didnt realize that a decent amount of STis were made, they are not quite as rare as I thought, still way less plentiful than the 86 platform though. It would be a different story if the FRS never existed though.

Edit- if you limited your Nationwide search to only Limited edition 86 models (all in total adding up to around 7000) then the comparison would be a lot more accurate. Like I said though, the twins are only 5 years old and they are still in production so it will be way easier to find one than an extinct car.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Darth Khan

And there is the other side of the coin. Enthusiast owners that FI the engine and beat the car to within an inch of its life. Then to add insult to injury they switch it back to N/A (selling the parts of course), and pretend they babied they car from day one.

The main issue is that most of the 'enthusiast' owners drive the car hard and secondly most of them have limited experience driving fast cars. While they 'learn' to handle the car they are eating away at the engine and transmission components.

I'm sure there are a few owners on the forums that are going to take my previous statement as a personal attack. That they know how to drive the car fast, that the car is designed to take abuse, etc, etc. All valid points but does not negate the fact that when buying second hand low cost sports car 'YOU DO NOT KNOW WHAT YOU ARE BUYING'

I would never purchase a second hand low cost sports car. (Unless I intended to race it). If you want to risk 15/20k on an unknown that's your choice. Personally if I could not afford one new I would save up my pennies and in the mean time stick to a low cost daily driver.

This is where the forum skews perceptions. There are several ways to define 'enthusiast' and not all of them mean driving the car hard, installing FI or in any other way causing damage. Maybe "most" on here drive it hard but only a very small percentage of owners are represented by this or any forum. For example we have maybe 3 or 4 active (known) female members here at any given time but almost a quarter of the new sales up to 2015 were female. That is a pretty big chunk of the owners not represented right off the bat. The vast majority of the new buyers were well above the average age we see on here and I would be more than willing to bet that most of them are perfectly able to drive a "fast" car and are not damaging anything even when pushing it. The younger crowd that are more inclined to be inexperienced and are just learning to drive are usually buying used not new (there are exceptions of course) so the bulk of the new cars are not being beat on. Most of these cars are bought new by people that just drive them like a Corolla so when buying used the odds are actually way in favour of getting an unmolested clean vehicle. Now, buying used as the third (or more) owner would be a bit scary as the demographic takes a huge right turn as soon as the price goes down.

[Darth Khan]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

This is where the forum skews perceptions. There are several ways to define 'enthusiast' and not all of them mean driving the car hard, installing FI or in any other way causing damage. Maybe "most" on here drive it hard but only a very small percentage of owners are represented by this or any forum. For example we have maybe 3 or 4 active (known) female members here at any given time but almost a quarter of the new sales up to 2015 were female. That is a pretty big chunk of the owners not represented right off the bat. The vast majority of the new buyers were well above the average age we see on here and I would be more than willing to bet that most of them are perfectly able to drive a "fast" car and are not damaging anything even when pushing it. The younger crowd that are more inclined to be inexperienced and are just learning to drive are usually buying used not new (there are exceptions of course) so the bulk of the new cars are not being beat on. Most of these cars are bought new by people that just drive them like a Corolla so when buying used the odds are actually way in favour of getting an unmolested clean vehicle. Now, buying used as the third (or more) owner would be a bit scary as the demographic takes a huge right turn as soon as the price goes down.

This is a interesting area and I agree with all of the points you have made. My concern is the overall demographics of the purchaser.

Buyers less than 45 years of age (Mostly likely to abuse the car): 40% (Approx). I agree there are other factors we should take into consideration. And I accept if you are willing to put in the effort to find a good car you have a good chance of succeeding.

My personal view is for a twin its not worth the effort. I might save 10k. Which I would end up paying out on repairs if the car was abused. I would rather just buy the dam thing new and know for me I made the right choice. (Plus I like the new car smell)

Or to put it another way: I'm too lazy to do all that research and still not be sure of the outcome.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Darth Khan

This is a interesting area and I agree with all of the points you have made. My concern is the overall demographics of the purchaser.

Buyers less than 45 years of age (Mostly likely to abuse the car): 40% (Approx). I agree there are other factors we should take into consideration. And I accept if you are willing to put in the effort to find a good car you have a good chance of succeeding.

My personal view is for a twin its not worth the effort. I might save 10k. Which I would end up paying out on repairs if the car was abused. I would rather just buy the dam thing new and know for me I made the right choice. (Plus I like the new car smell)

Or to put it another way: I'm too lazy to do all that research and still not be sure of the outcome.

I would never buy used either. Even if the number of abused ones is only 10% I do not consider the risk worth the savings. That is easy to say when I don't need to find the cheapest one possible though.