Subaru Testing a BRZ with STI Badging and a Big Wing

[Ganthrithor]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

Chuck the RS into a corner and it lifts the inside rear like any other FWD econo-box, except it's carrying 3,400 lbs. It's a nifty package for sure, but not some miracle of engineering.

This is supposedly with the stock tires... add grip and well, I can tell you first hand you can see it on three wheels from 50 feet away.



I'd be surprised if the Golf was any different (with more intrusive traction control that's next to impossible to disable), and every Subaru I've seen at autox understeers like a pig unless it's been modified significantly or handled very delicately in the corners (yes even 86's). If I had $40k for a fun car I'd be waiting for the markups to come off the Civic Type R's and get in the driver's seat of one of those, better power:weight than the STI/Golf R and no pretensions about what the chassis is like the FoRS.

Even with some mythical BRZ STI I'd be very surprised if it came with anything worthwhile as I've already sunk a few thousand into modifying a base car to my liking, I'd rather start over with a used '13 FR-S for <1/2 the money.

IMO if you've got $40k to spend and don't want a BRZ because it's not powerful enough, you'd be nuts not to just go out and find yourself a nice 997.2, put a Sharkwerks exhaust on it, and go enjoy life.

OK, maybe your dream isn't a 911, but in general: why buy a tuned econobox when you could buy a heavily-depreciated car that was designed to drive properly from the beginning? Older stuff is just better-- nice NA engines, proper steering, fewer (or none!) overly-complex and intrusive electronic systems, etc. Older things have all the minimalism and driver-focused bits we like about the BRZ but with more power, and one of the few decent cases against owning one is cost. If you've got the money, though... there are just so many cool older things you could buy!

Alternatively, spend $40k on a BRZ! I've got to be in the low 30's on mine. I could easily take another $8k and add a supercharger w/ trimmings and a few aero bits and have a total monster of a car. This thing is already stupid fun with some coils, some Whiteline bits, 225-section Super Sports and a totally stock powerplant. With another ~100hp and 50ft/lbs it would be fairly unhinged. You could be sideways in a cloud of smoke literally all of the time.

[nikitopo]

Originally Posted by Ganthrithor

OK, maybe your dream isn't a 911, but in general: why buy a tuned econobox when you could buy a heavily-depreciated car that was designed to drive properly from the beginning?

There is a particular reason for the heavy depreciation. You'll have an increased maintenance cost. Factory parts will be hard to find and there is always the additional working labour. There is a big difference changing just the oil or other fluids and maintaining an old car.

[strat61caster]

@Ganthrithor I agree wholeheartedly and should have been clearer in my language.

[Quentin]

Originally Posted by nikitopo

There is a particular reason for the heavy depreciation. You'll have an increased maintenance cost. Factory parts will be hard to find and there is always the additional working labour. There is a big difference changing just the oil or other fluids and maintaining an old car.

What explains the ridiculous depreciation on the BRZ/86 then?


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[extrashaky]

Originally Posted by Quentin

What explains the ridiculous depreciation on the BRZ/86 then?

What's ridiculous about it? Our cars are following or beating the normal depreciation curve. My four year old BRZ should be worth about $12K-$13K now, but KBB value on it is $14K, and I'm convinced I could get $15K for it.

The whining on this site about depreciation is silly. "Waaaah! I can't sell my four year old car for what I paid for it! This car sucks!"

[funwheeldrive]

Originally Posted by extrashaky

What's ridiculous about it? Our cars are following or beating the normal depreciation curve. My four year old BRZ should be worth about $12K-$13K now, but KBB value on it is $14K, and I'm convinced I could get $15K for it.

The whining on this site about depreciation is silly. "Waaaah! I can't sell my four year old car for what I paid for it! This car sucks!"

Obviously cost of maintenance isn't the only factor when it comes to depreciation though.


Look at the WRX, it has a more complicated drivetrain and more parts that require servicing, yet it holds its value like gold compared to the BRZ.

[Yousend]

Originally Posted by extrashaky

What's ridiculous about it? Our cars are following or beating the normal depreciation curve. My four year old BRZ should be worth about $12K-$13K now, but KBB value on it is $14K, and I'm convinced I could get $15K for it.

The whining on this site about depreciation is silly. "Waaaah! I can't sell my four year old car for what I paid for it! This car sucks!"

I never understood the point of caring about depreciation. I mean sure, I will probably sell it down the road, but I don't shop for a car based on its resale value, enjoy it and when the time comes I'll get rid of it. If you enjoyed the living crap out of your car (could be an econobox, I enjoyed my golf back in the day) why would you see that depreciation as "lost money"?

Then again, I go in and buy a car with the expectation to keep it until it gives out. If I have to part ways, money reasons would probably be why I do, but I won't regret it even if I end up donating it to a charity. I've had my fun with it, the investment was worthwhile.

[extrashaky]

Originally Posted by funwheeldrive

Look at the WRX, it has a more complicated drivetrain and more parts that require servicing, yet it holds its value like gold compared to the BRZ.

Some cars beat the average depreciation curve better than others. I don't know how the WRX price is holding up, but even assuming it's holding value better than the BRZ, that doesn't mean the BRZ's depreciation is "ridiculous." It's like saying Neil Degrasse Tyson is stupid because Einstein had a higher IQ.

[extrashaky]

Originally Posted by Yousend

I never understood the point of caring about depreciation... Then again, I go in and buy a car with the expectation to keep it until it gives out.

That's the key. Most people are just buying generic transportation (hence the explanation for Toyota having the most boring cars on the planet and still selling more of them than anyone else), and the financing game has damaged most people's thinking. The auto manufacturers want you to finance a car, keep it two or three years, then trade it in on another financed car, which you'll keep two or three years and trade in on another financed car. In that scenario, a car that holds its value better means you'll be in a better position to trade up next time.

I think the same way you do. I still have the last new car I bought in June 2000 and didn't buy the Subaru with a plan to sell it. Obviously this finance and trade model doesn't apply to us.

[nikitopo]

Originally Posted by funwheeldrive

Obviously cost of maintenance isn't the only factor when it comes to depreciation though.


Look at the WRX, it has a more complicated drivetrain and more parts that require servicing, yet it holds its value like gold compared to the BRZ.

Not too many people willing to pay enough for an entry level used sport car?

[Yousend]

Originally Posted by extrashaky

That's the key. Most people are just buying generic transportation (hence the explanation for Toyota having the most boring cars on the planet and still selling more of them than anyone else), and the financing game has damaged most people's thinking. The auto manufacturers want you to finance a car, keep it two or three years, then trade it in on another financed car, which you'll keep two or three years and trade in on another financed car. In that scenario, a car that holds its value better means you'll be in a better position to trade up next time.

I think the same way you do. I still have the last new car I bought in June 2000 and didn't buy the Subaru with a plan to sell it. Obviously this finance and trade model doesn't apply to us.

Yeah, I knew about that trade-in model because I got a Toyota offer to buy-back my car earlier this summer. But even among people I know, when I bought it I got a few people asking me how good the resale value was for "When I sell it". I laugh at them every time and tell them I'm not buying stuff to resell it. I'll figure it out once the time comes! That's like asking people if they bought a house in a good neighborhood for when they move out as opposed to the quality of life in that neighborhood.

[Quentin]

Originally Posted by extrashaky

What's ridiculous about it? Our cars are following or beating the normal depreciation curve. My four year old BRZ should be worth about $12K-$13K now, but KBB value on it is $14K, and I'm convinced I could get $15K for it.



The whining on this site about depreciation is silly. "Waaaah! I can't sell my four year old car for what I paid for it! This car sucks!"

The comment was mostly tongue in cheek because the twins don't exactly have stellar resale value despite having pretty cheap/basic parts. Go read all the threads where 2 or 3 year old cars are getting trade in offers under half of MSRP. My personal car retail value is just a bit more than 15% depreciation each year with 10k miles per year. Trade in is more like 18% per year.

Regardless, the reason the depreciation is high is because most people don't want used sports cars. They get driven hard and put away wet. They get wrecked frequently. Practical people buy used cars. Practical people don't often buy impractical cars and the twins are generally impractical vehicles.

Depreciation doesn't matter if you can actually keep your car well past it having near-zero value. What happens if your life situation changes? What happens when someone runs a red light and totals your car? What happens if your car is flooded? The insurance company only gives you enough to buy another one at the same condition. You are, in essence, forced to sell it to the insurance company for market value.

Long term, when this chassis is killed off and replaced with something with electric assist or something, I can see nicer, low mileage examples following S2000 depreciation curve. The depreciation game changes when you can no longer get it new from the dealership.


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[Ganthrithor]

Originally Posted by nikitopo

There is a particular reason for the heavy depreciation. You'll have an increased maintenance cost. Factory parts will be hard to find and there is always the additional working labour. There is a big difference changing just the oil or other fluids and maintaining an old car.

Sort of? I mean, the BRZ is an exceptionally cheap car to maintain-- I'll grant you that. Even buying bits from the dealer, my last oil change cost less than $50. The same thing on my 911 cost me $200 (although I bought some tools and stuff which will be one-time purchases in addition to the consumables).

But beyond consumables costing a bit more, there's really not a huge difference between operating the Porsche and the Subaru. Neither one has been tearing through things like brakes or tyres. The Porsche actually costs less to insure than the BRZ. Unless you explode something on the car, the 911 doesn't cost that much more. And it sounds like more of these super-tuned econoboxes are prone to exploding. I'll say this for the 911: you really don't need to worry about driving it hard. Even the BRZ I don't drive flat out in the mountains anymore because it really needs an oil cooler to keep up. Cheaper cars just aren't designed to actually get driven quickly for more than a few minutes at a time, and the required retrofits aren't free either.

[extrashaky]

Originally Posted by Quentin

Regardless, the reason the depreciation is high is because most people don't want used sports cars.

Except that the depreciation is not high. It's matching or beating the average depreciation curve.

A 3 year old car should be getting trade in offers of less than half of MSRP. The only reason people are surprised is because they have no idea how automotive depreciation works.