Official: Toyota FT-1 Concept / First New Supra Prototype Spotted!

[Captain Snooze]

Originally Posted by Silver Supra

Driving a MT is no mystery or difficult task

Some/many people would disagree with you on this.

[daiheadjai]

Personally, I'd love to drive a car with manual steering, but I recognize that it isn't terribly-practical in city driving (with parallel parking, navigating narrow streets, etc.).

Jalopnik posted an article of a Toyota manual gearbox that used all manner of electronics to allow for clutchless-operation when the user demanded it (i.e. in stop-go traffic), and manual clutch operation when fun driving is in the cards.

It'd be nice to get that for power steering, but there's just no business case for it.

Incidentally, the last time I got to experience manual steering was when I broke the bolt that held in the tensioner/wheel for the serpentine belt for the power accessories.
It would have been enjoyable, were it not for my dash lighting up like a Christmas tree.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by Silver Supra

Its fine for you to prefer stick but the object in real-life racing is to be the fastest and complete laps or runs in the shortest time. Try trail braking or shifting in turns in a MT.

Driving a MT is no mystery or difficult task - I've done it over 50 years, and with a lot tougher transmissions and clutches than those of today.
Why, driving one of those tough old trannies would give you even more chances to "better your driving skills"!! Ditch the power steering, synchromesh shifting, power brakes (go back to drum brakes!). Shoot - you don't even need that windshield! That's all cheating, you know? Where is your personal challenge??

Just putting this in perspective, no offense intended. Times change and pretty soon we will all be "cheating" because manual transmissions will disappear in a few years!

The difference is the computer part. And it isn't the point of my analogy that technology is cheating. It is that winning is about challenging ones abilities; the less abilities that are challenged then the less of a triumph winning becomes.

Im only 35 but my first car was a 61 Valiant. I can say that it took more care to steer and brake, and if I would have tried to race it then it definitely would have been harder to match the speed of a modern equivalent. The difference is those analog components took more care than modern versions of analog components, but they are still compariable. Today's ABS, Traction Control, VSC, transmissions, etc add computer control that changes things all together. With autopilot technology not far away, I won't be surprised if racing teams ditch the driver all together and race computer algorithm vs computer algorithm.

Check out this video below, kinda illustrates my point. Lap times are fast but that doesn't mean skills are better. Usain Bolt is better than the fastest guy was twenty years ago. Can you say that about racing?

[Silver Supra]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

The difference is the computer part. And it isn't the point of my analogy that technology is cheating. It is that winning is about challenging ones abilities; the less abilities that are challenged then the less of a triumph winning becomes. Usain Bolt is better than the fastest guy was twenty years ago. Can you say that about racing?

Usain was faster than the guys he was racing over the years, but he is not now. He was beaten, without cheating. (May have been age and/or injury, but beaten). Runners used to run without starting blocks at one time, but times have changed (and times continue to go down)!!
IMO, race drivers are better than they were twenty years ago.
The point we seem to disagree on is whether manual shifting is a "skill that should be challenged". I say no, because it is unnecessary now with many of the new transmissions. It is a skill that should be learned, so one can drive anything out there! I also think it helped me early on because the earlier autos were definitely not for racing!! But, with a good auto, the driver can spend more time focusing on and challenging other skills. That was my point in bringing up other improvements (like PS, PB, HUD, syncros, etc), that are not "cheating", but fact. No need to challenge those manual braking and steering skills! Winning within the rules is what matters; challenging skills gets participation trophies.

None of this is to say people should switch from or not drive manuals. Drive what you like. Just don't conflate what you like and what is best for someone else.

Anyway, I don't disagree with most of your points.

[Silver Supra]

Originally Posted by Captain Snooze

Some/many people would disagree with you on this.

Probably so, and that is a reason everyone should learn to drive stick, even if they don't like it or don't buy one!

[gymratter]

^says the guy that drives an automatic Supra :p

[Captain Snooze]

Originally Posted by Silver Supra

Probably so, and that is a reason everyone should learn to drive stick, even if they don't like it or don't buy one!

Originally Posted by Silver Supra

Just don't conflate what you like and what is best for someone else.

Is this a contradiction? In my not quite sober state I am going to suggest "yes".

[gymratter]

Originally Posted by funwheeldrive

Are those lasers? Isn't that the new fad?

the X5 is going to have them

[darthpnoy1984]

Funny how everyone and there Mom's seems to be talking about whether this car will live up to the MKIV Supra. I honestly feel its going after the concept of that the 82-86 MK2 Supra was about practical, GT car but had decent handling and power. If you guys are expecting GTR performance it's not going to happen guys.


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[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by Silver Supra

Usain was faster than the guys he was racing over the years, but he is not now. He was beaten, without cheating. (May have been age and/or injury, but beaten). Runners used to run without starting blocks at one time, but times have changed (and times continue to go down)!!
IMO, race drivers are better than they were twenty years ago.
The point we seem to disagree on is whether manual shifting is a "skill that should be challenged". I say no, because it is unnecessary now with many of the new transmissions. It is a skill that should be learned, so one can drive anything out there! I also think it helped me early on because the earlier autos were definitely not for racing!! But, with a good auto, the driver can spend more time focusing on and challenging other skills. That was my point in bringing up other improvements (like PS, PB, HUD, syncros, etc), that are not "cheating", but fact. No need to challenge those manual braking and steering skills! Winning within the rules is what matters; challenging skills gets participation trophies.

None of this is to say people should switch from or not drive manuals. Drive what you like. Just don't conflate what you like and what is best for someone else.

Anyway, I don't disagree with most of your points.

You watch the video I posted? Top Gear host interviews Formula racer who drove Arton Senna's F1 car. Interesting.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by darthpnoy1984

Funny how everyone and there Mom's seems to be talking about whether this car will live up to the MKIV Supra. I honestly feel its going after the concept of that the 82-86 MK2 Supra was about practical, GT car but had decent handling and power. If you guys are expecting GTR performance it's not going to happen guys.


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Why?

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

Why?

Because it's going to be a BMW Z5 with a Toyota badge on it.

Who's raving about the Z4 right now? Sure it's a solid roadster/gt car, in M trim with a good driver and setup it can embarrass 'better' cars, but it's been years since BMW lit the performance car world on fire and that's not going to change even with a cash infusion from Toyota for this chassis.

The best thing it's got going for it is the B48/B58 engine, for the I6 >400 hp/ft-lbs at the wheels with a tune will likely be the norm with a piggyback or tune. And the 4-banger is somewhere around mid 200's whp with ~300 ft-lbs tuned which should be more than enough to have fun even if they can't drop the weight below 3,200 lbs.

With a Toyota badge hopefully there will be a flock of tuning effort not usually spent on BMW engines/chassis, I'd be surprised if people weren't pulling a semi-reliable 600+ hp out of a fully modded B58 by the turn of the decade. But like the FA20, modern engines just aren't as overbuilt as they were in the past like the 2JZ.

[Silver Supra]

Originally Posted by gymratter

^says the guy that drives an automatic Supra :p

I do indeed. I have also driven a ton of stick shifts, off-track and on-track. I recommend everyone learn to drive a MT, not that everyone own one.
Own what you like.

[Silver Supra]

Originally Posted by Captain Snooze

Is this a contradiction? In my not quite sober state I am going to suggest "yes".

Sorry - no contradiction at all.
1. Buy/own what you want - not what someone else wants for you.
2. Learn to drive stick, regardless of what you buy.