Alignment Changed at Track Event?

[Jamestl]

Hi everyone -- Just had my first weekend in a long time at Autobahn with NASA Great Lakes. Great event and saw a few other FRS/BRZs.

On the way back yesterday I noticed that the alignment on the car changed. I'm now tracking right (with about same pressure on all tires) by about 1-2 degrees (or, I have to turn the wheel 1-2 degrees to the left to go straight).

So my questions are:

1) Does this happen often? I didn't hit anything on the track so this was a bit surprising after just one day on track...

2) I do daily the car but it's a very short distance so I'm not too worried about uneven tire wear as my summer/track tires (star specs) will only be used until end of Sept (last event). However, do I need to have this corrected for the next events? Today I ran 4 sessions without any issues on track.

3) I heard from someone at the track that he's running SPC camber bolts in the upper and lower mounts in the struts and getting ~2.5 of camber. Has anyone done this? The prior shop only got 1.3 out of crash bolt up top and SPC bolt on the bottom.

I do want to get this corrected but given all the race shops are only only during the week I basically have to take time off work to do it, and my work schedule doesn't have a ton of flexibility so If I can get away with this for a little bit that may be the preferred route. Thanks!

Best,
James

[cjd]

I'd guess the camber bolts slipped. Had that happen on my last car. A cheap solution is to max it out and re-tighten, both sides. I recall reading they need higher torque spec than stock. Toe might still be off in this case, which is what will wear tires. It'll likely be less off than it is now. Track it and you could need new tires.

I'd say bring it over, but I don't have a free evening for a couple weeks at the earliest - haven't even had my own car back up and I've been planning to...

[lutfy]

Originally Posted by Jamestl

Hi everyone -- Just had my first weekend in a long time at Autobahn with NASA Great Lakes. Great event and saw a few other FRS/BRZs.

On the way back yesterday I noticed that the alignment on the car changed. I'm now tracking right (with about same pressure on all tires) by about 1-2 degrees (or, I have to turn the wheel 1-2 degrees to the left to go straight).

So my questions are:

1) Does this happen often? I didn't hit anything on the track so this was a bit surprising after just one day on track...

2) I do daily the car but it's a very short distance so I'm not too worried about uneven tire wear as my summer/track tires (star specs) will only be used until end of Sept (last event). However, do I need to have this corrected for the next events? Today I ran 4 sessions without any issues on track.

3) I heard from someone at the track that he's running SPC camber bolts in the upper and lower mounts in the struts and getting ~2.5 of camber. Has anyone done this? The prior shop only got 1.3 out of crash bolt up top and SPC bolt on the bottom.

I do want to get this corrected but given all the race shops are only only during the week I basically have to take time off work to do it, and my work schedule doesn't have a ton of flexibility so If I can get away with this for a little bit that may be the preferred route. Thanks!

Best,
James

Hey James,

1) Have you checked that its not the tires? There is a brisk possibility of wear (from direction of the track) causing it. Wouldnt hurt to flip it left to right.

2) I ran the lower strut bolt on the top and ran another lower strut bolt at the bottom. With TRD springs it got me to -2.1 degree (not enough) then I ran the SPC bolt at the bottom to hole (using bottom hole on top) to get full -2.4 degree. If you car is not lowered, then you wont get to the desired -2.4 or -2.5 with crash bolt on top and SPC at the bottom. I torqued the bolts to 120lbs and it did not slip. Have read about folks running SPC top and bottom to get to the -2.5 but am just sharing my experience.

Most likely your toe is not affected and likely as others have chimed, could be your camber IF your tires are not the culprit. Go with the upper crash bolts first (loosen and push then tighten and make sure you mark with a nail polish or while market to ensure it does not happen again). Dont tinker with the bottom SPC bolt as its lobed and may mess things up unless on the rack.

Cheers,

Lutfy

[OND]

Had the same thing happen to me after a wet track day with some trips to the grass. I can actually spot where it happened when I check the GoPro footage. I got the alignment checked afterwards and asked them to inspect if anything seemed off with the suspension, but they couldnt find any issues and the camber seemed fine.

I am still wondering if the whole steering column or the rear subframe shifted a little during the incident, but the car drives just fine after another alignment to increase camber, so I dont worry about it anymore.

[Jamestl]

Thanks for the responses guys!

On the bolt slipping - that was my first thought as well, but the camber is so high that I could easily tell with the car sitting, so that's something to investigate.

On the tires - I don't think the tires are the case. THe wear so far has been relatively even and both sides are about 40 degrees hot (started with about 2 lbs higher on the driver side before being dialed down). As the tires are directional I can't run them in reverse. I could do a front to back rotation, but not sure the tires are what's causing the tracking to the right.

OND -- I'm not sure I fully understand your scenario. You're saying you went off track a few times, had some issues with the car tracking right/left, got it checked out but the alignment was fine but still tracking off center, but after another alignment things went back to normal?

[OND]

Originally Posted by Jamestl

OND -- I'm not sure I fully understand your scenario. You're saying you went off track a few times, had some issues with the car tracking right/left, got it checked out but the alignment was fine but still tracking off center, but after another alignment things went back to normal?

Exactly. To clarify, the car drove straight, but the steering wheel was not centered.

I am thinking something shifted on track, but the alignment guy didnt center the wheel when checking alignment and just drove the car straight onto the rack (with off-center steering) and said things were fine.

Still not sure what happened, but it went away after getting a second set of camber bolts and telling the alignment shop to make double sure steering is straight when doing the alignment work.

[Jamestl]

Originally Posted by OND

Exactly. To clarify, the car drove straight, but the steering wheel was not centered.

I am thinking something shifted on track, but the alignment guy didnt center the wheel when checking alignment and just drove the car straight onto the rack (with off-center steering) and said things were fine.

Still not sure what happened, but it went away after getting a second set of camber bolts and telling the alignment shop to make double sure steering is straight when doing the alignment work.

Got it, thanks!

[strat61caster]

I've found the alignment on the front end to be rock solid, but if the rear end shifts it can cause a cock-eyed steering wheel just as easily as the front. I hear you have SPC LCA's so that could be it right there that those guys slipped after some abuse.

Just putting it on the alignment rack should be <$100 to see if that's your issue. Aside from potential handling foibles and the risk of more slippage and uneven tire wear there's likely no detriment to continuing to drive it as-is (although those are some pretty damn big detriments, the point is you likely won't die in a fireball not fixing it for a few days)

[Jamestl]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

I've found the alignment on the front end to be rock solid, but if the rear end shifts it can cause a cock-eyed steering wheel just as easily as the front. I hear you have SPC LCA's so that could be it right there that those guys slipped after some abuse.

Just putting it on the alignment rack should be <$100 to see if that's your issue. Aside from potential handling foibles and the risk of more slippage and uneven tire wear there's likely no detriment to continuing to drive it as-is (although those are some pretty damn big detriments, the point is you likely won't die in a fireball not fixing it for a few days)

I have the SPC camber bolts up front and SPL LCA on the back. From everything I've read the SPLs should be fine, right? Otherwise trying to adjust alignment after every track day becomes prohibitively expensive (and extremely time consuming...).

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by Jamestl

I have the SPC camber bolts up front and SPL LCA on the back. From everything I've read the SPLs should be fine, right? Otherwise trying to adjust alignment after every track day becomes prohibitively expensive (and extremely time consuming...).

They should be, but you've noticed something is not correct, therefore you should investigate instead of pretending everything is ok because you paid a bunch of money for the fancy part.

Could be that the OE toe arm slipped.

Like I said, <$100 to throw it on the alignment rack and have peace of mind. It's a lot cheaper than chewing up a set of tires with bad alignment or worse have it slip further and cause an accident.

You can post on the internet until the cows come home, but until you check the alignment this thread is worth it's weight in gold: nothing.

To assuage your fears, no it's not normal to have to check alignment after every event provided the car is in good condition and prior alignment was performed correctly and all nuts and bolts are tourqued properly.

[Jamestl]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

They should be, but you've noticed something is not correct, therefore you should investigate instead of pretending everything is ok because you paid a bunch of money for the fancy part.

Could be that the OE toe arm slipped.

Like I said, <$100 to throw it on the alignment rack and have peace of mind. It's a lot cheaper than chewing up a set of tires with bad alignment or worse have it slip further and cause an accident.

You can post on the internet until the cows come home, but until you check the alignment this thread is worth it's weight in gold: nothing.

To assuage your fears, no it's not normal to have to check alignment after every event provided the car is in good condition and prior alignment was performed correctly and all nuts and bolts are tourqued properly.

Of course you're right. I didn't mean to suggest that it could not have somehow shifted. But good to hear that this is abnormal.

I guess the follow up question is whether it's worth it to go back to the same place I had it done to begin with. I don't want to put it on them b/c I did drive it for about 200 miles since the alignment, but on the other hand I'm not sure that they did everything properly (and if not, maybe I get it fixed for free, but do I really trust the same people who didn't do it correctly to do it right the second time...?). Anyway, my problem to figure out. THanks again.

[H1C]

Originally Posted by Jamestl

Hi everyone -- Just had my first weekend in a long time at Autobahn with NASA Great Lakes. Great event and saw a few other FRS/BRZs.

On the way back yesterday I noticed that the alignment on the car changed. I'm now tracking right (with about same pressure on all tires) by about 1-2 degrees (or, I have to turn the wheel 1-2 degrees to the left to go straight).

So my questions are:

1) Does this happen often? I didn't hit anything on the track so this was a bit surprising after just one day on track...

I think it's pretty common for alignment settings to drift after hard driving on the track, or over broken enough pavement on the street. I've noticed such toe changes as you describe after just a day of autocrossing. In your case, the wheel being cocked left when the car is straight ahead is probably some combination of more toe in at the LF and/or more toe out at the RF than the car had previously.

When I lived in NYC, with its atrocious pavement, I would align my previous autocross car once a month or more during the season. I found a 24-hour taxi garage with a Hunter rack, became friendly with the owner, and was able to get alignments at $40 a pop any time of day or night.

Where I live now the pavement is much better, but I'm still pretty anal about alignments, so I got a lifetime deal at Firestone for $200. At first they were all "we can only put settings back within factory specs," but as I've gotten to know the tech, he now aligns to any spec that I ask for (camber in particular), no matter how far off of the factory specs it is. I just give him a tip every time.

One thing that I've noticed definitely helps in reducing alignment settings drift: torque-ing the jam nuts to factory spec. No tech does this unless you specifically ask them to, and for the front, you may have to bring your own crow's foot wrench. For the jam nut on the tie rod ends, the factory spec is 55 ft-lbs iirc; and for the rear toe eccentrics it's 74 ft-lbs. My car holds its settings much, much better since I started making sure that these are torqued to spec.

Oh, and because I'm so picky about alignments, especially the wheel being straight ahead, I always bring this with me to the shop:

https://www.amazon.com/Aven-058-6227.../dp/B00NCTI7L0

The Firestone manager thought it was so funny that she bought one for her husband, who's a tech at another location, and is as picky as I am about alignments.

[Jamestl]

Originally Posted by H1C

I think it's pretty common for alignment settings to drift after hard driving on the track, or over broken enough pavement on the street. I've noticed such toe changes as you describe after just a day of autocrossing. In your case, the wheel being cocked left when the car is straight ahead is probably some combination of more toe in at the LF and/or more toe out at the RF than the car had previously.

When I lived in NYC, with its atrocious pavement, I would align my previous autocross car once a month or more during the season. I found a 24-hour taxi garage with a Hunter rack, became friendly with the owner, and was able to get alignments at $40 a pop any time of day or night.

Where I live now the pavement is much better, but I'm still pretty anal about alignments, so I got a lifetime deal at Firestone for $200. At first they were all "we can only put settings back within factory specs," but as I've gotten to know the tech, he now aligns to any spec that I ask for (camber in particular), no matter how far off of the factory specs it is. I just give him a tip every time.

One thing that I've noticed definitely helps in reducing alignment settings drift: torque-ing the jam nuts to factory spec. No tech does this unless you specifically ask them to, and for the front, you may have to bring your own crow's foot wrench. For the jam nut on the tie rod ends, the factory spec is 55 ft-lbs iirc; and for the rear toe eccentrics it's 74 ft-lbs. My car holds its settings much, much better since I started making sure that these are torqued to spec.

Oh, and because I'm so picky about alignments, especially the wheel being straight ahead, I always bring this with me to the shop:

https://www.amazon.com/Aven-058-6227.../dp/B00NCTI7L0

The Firestone manager thought it was so funny that she bought one for her husband, who's a tech at another location, and is as picky as I am about alignments.

Hahaha that's pretty funny. I'll check out the local Firestone place to see if they'd be willing to do the alignment to my specs. When I lived in Pittsburgh I had a FIrestone shop 2 min away but they wouldn't change my oil if I gave them the filter and oil - "not approved..."

What suspension bits are you running and are they competent in adjusting it? Not that camber bolts are super hard to learn but I don't know how often they come across those. I guess I can always try bribing them with future business on tires. Man track days are so expensive...

[H1C]

In the front I have the OEM crash bolt, the Racer-X aluminum LCA and extended tie-rod ends, and stock top hats. The rear is stock; I'm planning on getting Racer-X's rear LCA eventually -- but for now the -2.2 camber I have back there naturally from the drop on RCE Tarmac springs is enough.

The alignment tech at my local Firestone is an ASE Master Tech, so he knows what he's doing. He does all of their big jobs, but also happens to be the one who does alignments. I think he's really good -- better than some techs I've encountered at "race" shops. He has no problem with the Racer-X LCA's and getting the camber and toe that I've asked for. I set the caster at home by eyeballing it, and both sides came out pretty even at around 6 degrees, so I leave it alone and haven't asked him to mess with it.

YMMV of course at your local Firestone -- I would go in and talk to them and see what kind of vibe you get. There are good and bad techs everywhere. In my experience it doesn't matter what kind of shop it is, or what the shop's reputation is. The alignment tech at that 24-hour taxi garage in NYC was awesome -- he probably did a couple dozen alignments overnight, every night. It comes down to how well-trained and meticulous each individual tech is, how much they care about doing their job well.