My review of the FRS (RW Steer discussion)

[frsinpa]

Originally Posted by AaronCompNetSys

Heading to Realto, after I let it warm up, I flicked off the AC and told Lisa, Here we go. I pinned the throttle from a crawl, the trans dutifully jumped to first and as the revs climbed, I waited for that VTEC moment. When the first shift hit right at the redline, I looked at Lisa and she said, "Really, thats it?" Nuff said. This thing doesn't have enough power to rotate the rear, and barely enough to shift the weight around.

I stopped reading after this part... haha. V-TeC never kicked in bro!

[Spaceywilly]

How is rear steer a cheap way to get rotation? Isn't that how early Porsche 911s were set up, which is why they are known for their snap oversteer? Without having the engine behind the rear axle I don't see any way it would become unpredictable in turns, unless you are driving over rocks.

As for your power comments, try driving the manual. A manual BRZ and an s2000 both do the 1/4 mile in just under 15 seconds so you will probably not be as disappointed with its performance. Actually, you still will be because you sound like a moron, but it's worth a shot. I get the feeling from your comment that you have read a few too many magazine articles. Your glamour vid reminds me of the old fat guy in Napoleon Dynamite filming himself throwing a football to show everyone how awesome he is. Wow, you can take turns at 35mph. Cool story, bro.

[waylonrobert]

I didn't understand much of what you wrote OP. Guess I'm not as big of a gearhead as some folks.

[Opposed]

I traded an 02 S for my FR-S, and four weeks into it, I have not regretted one bit. I love the S, and yes, the VTEC-Yo was fun, but was a pain daily driving it for other reasons. The S2000 is a fantastic machine, but just wasn't for me anymore.

[Wepeel]

Originally Posted by ZDan

Anybody have a rear toe-curve for this car yet?

As an AP1 owner, that's my only major criticism of that car's suspension. Big changes in rear toe with bump is and always been a gimmick that doesn't work. It makes the AP1's handling a little weird and non-linear. Drive-aroundable, but not ideal, and of course it's caught countless uninitiated drivers out.

I believe the AP1 would gain something like 1/8" toe per inch of travel (that's HUGE!). I would hope that the FR-S/BRZ rear toe is much more stable/consistent throughout uppie/downie travel.

Using same components vs. other cars doesn't say anything. AP2 used the same suspension components but relocated the toe-arm pivot location on the chassis to minimize toe change with bump.

Again, anybody have a rear toe curve yet?

The S2k would toe out under bump though, correct? That seems to be what the OP is assuming the BRZ does, but it should do just the opposite.

I haven't seen a toe curve, but Kojima's writeup from a while back noted:

The rear suspension looks like it was lifted right out of a late model GE Impreza . It is an unremarkable multi link which is designed to toe in under roll with moderate negative camber gain. This gives a tendency to have more rear traction under hard cornering reducing strong oversteer, good for a production car. There is a moderate amount of antisquat in the suspension geometry, is fine for the 200 hp production car allowing a soft nice riding spring rate without excessive squat under acceleration but when someone drops in a 500 hp EJ25 which you know is coming, the anti may need to be reduced and stiffer springs run to give the car more traction off of the corners and a more linear transfer to oversteer with the throttle.

I haven't looked under the car in person but in photos is still seems the rear toe link is quite a bit shorter than the other lateral links, which seems consistent.

[frsinpa]

Originally Posted by Opposed

I traded an 02 S for my FR-S, and four weeks into it, I have not regretted one bit. I love the S, and yes, the VTEC-Yo was fun, but was a pain daily driving it for other reasons. The S2000 is a fantastic machine, but just wasn't for me anymore.

I'm sure it's also nice to have a hard-top in MN too!

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by Wepeel

The S2k would toe out under bump though, correct?

No, AP1 S2000 rears toe IN under bump, following similar mistakes (I think...) made with the FC RX-7, original NSX geometry, and the first 2nd-gen MR2's.

The idea is that if you toe the outside rear IN as the car enters a corner, it will reduce oversteer, making it safer for noobs.

But it doesn't work, has NEVER worked! It actually makes cars less stable at the worst possible moment, and has put many a noob into the weeds.

The problem is that if the back end gets a little squirrelly, and the uninitiated driver does what comes naturally and abruptly lifts off the gas, the outside rear then toes relatively OUTward. So his noob mistake of lifting gives him the usual extra dose of oversteer from unloading the rear tires, PLUS another big dose of oversteer as the outside rear toe changes.

Mucho better-o for experienced drivers and noobs to have the rear toe remain somewhat consistent through range of travel.

Gimmicky rear toe shenanigans are just not good for anything as far as I'm concerned.

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by DantKR

FR-S BRZ you're going to want to keep around 6k RPM, if you dip below 4k you're going to hit the torque dip and then you really won't be able to spin the tires.

At the track, for max speed/min lap times, you're going to want to keep it around peak power rpm, 7000. To do this you'll have to wind it out well past 7000 in order to keep from being too far down on the power curve when you upshift.

Don't understand why you would want to be able to spin the rear tires. You want to maximize forward thrust, so keeping it just at incipient wheelspin. Not that wheelspin is going to be an issue for a well-driven FR-S/BRZ...

[DantKR]

He was talking about taking it sideways. Someone else was mentioning he was keeping his S2000 at high revs. Similar or the same to the FR-S/BRZ you're going to have to stay very high in RPMs to get the most out of it. That's what my comment was about.

[alyon]

This sounds like a case of the Monda.... I mean, use of an auto tranny for spirited driving. The auto is significantly slower with its longer gears.

OP, find a friend or dealer with a MT frs. Should be much more enjoyable. Especially coming from an S2000.

[JDMrolla]

Originally Posted by AaronCompNetSys

TL;DR Underpowered with good handling but artificially enhanced.

Started my trip off right talking with the sales guy, turns out he is a collector to, 7 under his belt. I didn't give much hint about what I knew besides when he asked what I owned. I asked what rev limit to keep it under, he said he didn't think I would hurt it if I maxed it a couple times. He mentioned sport buttons and whatever shift times, which I ignored as I turned everything off. I noticed the steering wheel was way to thick, and I have big hands.

Just leaving the lot, it was apparent that the low down torque was closer to the 2.5 than the 2 liter, and the ride quality was very smooth. The auto trans shifted smoothly and authoritatively. The first couple turns through the lot I noticed something extremely familiar, which I would soon find myself in a big argument with the sales guy about...

Heading to Realto, after I let it warm up, I flicked off the AC and told Lisa, Here we go. I pinned the throttle from a crawl, the trans dutifully jumped to first and as the revs climbed, I waited for that VTEC moment. When the first shift hit right at the redline, I looked at Lisa and she said, "Really, thats it?" Nuff said. This thing doesn't have enough power to rotate the rear, and barely enough to shift the weight around.

Back to the steering. The electric steering was quite apparent but same as what I was used to. Weight was fine, I'm just concerned with how the car handles itself with what grip it has. The trait this car shares with its donor as fault of the suspension is the passive rear wheel steer. This trait is noticeable more in some cars (Impulse RS) and not as much in others, but its a trait Subaru builds into its suspension geometry. The magical reactive steering that you hear people talk about with this car, its because it has a high amount of rear wheel steer. In short: as the suspension compresses, the tire toe changes, inducing a bit of extra yaw. This effect helps make the car feel like its pivoting around its center, but has its limits. Its great for AWD because it helps relieve some of the strain put on the fronts under power. In the FRS, the effect is so strong you feel it on the smallest of inputs.

Here is why it is bad: the limits of passive rear steer. The rears only give you so much free yaw, and as you load and unload the rears it gives and taketh away. This makes for very unpredictable for-aft swapping of grip, keeping you about even understeer and oversteer.

Of course you can learn to deal with it, but I personally don't like it. I prefer to manage yaw myself with for-aft balance and the throttle. Its a trait of a RWD car that I think makes it unique. Taking it from the AWD Subie land and forcing it upon a RWD platform doesn't fit in my opinion.

On the flip side, I think this would be a great car for the beginner to RWD. You can have a bit of yaw inducing fun without actually having to do it yourself.

For an experienced driver, this car would need several mods out the door to provide the complete sports car experience you can get from other brands.

Good try Subaru engineers. I'll stop by again with high hopes next revision. After stepping out of the FRS, I stepped into my S and had a properly fun 2 hour drive with less tire grip (all four tires balding). After Lisa listened to the sales guy blab on about how great the FRS handled, she said I should offer him a ride in mine to see what he's missing.

so you even know how to drive?

[Wicked Wookiee]

Originally Posted by Draco-REX

Considering I was able to hang the tail of BRZ out around a long left-hand sweeper at an AutoX yesterday without using the e-brake, I have to wonder about the OP's declaration that it can't get the tail out.

Hell, considering all the video evidence of this car drifting, I again wonder about his assertion that it can't drift. I think the issue might be the wingnut behind the wheel, not the chassis.

/agree
Most video reviews I have seen show the tail out.

Here, 11 seconds into the review:
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tPoZ1SC8uwk"]2013 Scion FR-S: A New Hope? - Ignition Episode 14 - YouTube[/ame]

If a Consumer Reports reviewer can break the car loose, then you know anyone should be able to do it (although the BRZ suspension is tuned differently):
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnSnRgRUopE"]2013 Subaru BRZ first look from Consumer Reports - YouTube[/ame]

I think the problem people have is not this guy's opinion, which is his own, it's that the facts seem wrong.

[Capt Canuck]

Originally Posted by AaronCompNetSys

Wow, I didn't know this forum turned into such haters. Pretty much all of your childish callouts are false, such as the trans was in sport.

I'll just leave now.

I don't see too many haters of negative words about the FRS, as most people are clued up on what it is and isn't. Not everyone will like, nor should they. What I do see - and I'm in agreement - is haters of the cringe-worthy tone of the initial post.

Your Ryan Gosling/Driver, stud wheelsman conceit fails horribly. It comes across in the same manner as a self-absorbed Yelp review from some self-proclaimed foie gras connoisseur.

Bye bye.

[Opposed]

Originally Posted by frsinpa

I'm sure it's also nice to have a hard-top in MN too!

Lol, yea, that is one part of it. Half the year its snowing and cold, and the other half like all this week its 98 degrees and 4000% humidity..