200hp / 2700lbs - Really?

[tachi1247]

Originally Posted by cyde01

it doesn't need 11.3!!!!! why should it HAVE to have the same power/weight as a v6? 13.5 is more than enough!!!!!

Because that P/W is worse than a V6 accord sedan. While P/W isn't the end all be all of how quick it will be it does give a good indication of potential performance. A sports car, by definition, should outperform a family sedan in a race, even if said sports car isn't designed as a drag racer.

[xantonin]

Originally Posted by cyde01

it doesn't need 11.3!!!!! why should it HAVE to have the same power/weight as a v6? 13.5 is more than enough!!!!!

I agree.

My bike has a ratio of 2.705, I don't really care about 0-60 time if I start to feel insecure about it I'll ride my bike.

[ichitaka05]

Originally Posted by xantonin

I agree.

My bike has a ratio of 2.705, I don't really care about 0-60 time if I start to feel insecure about it I'll ride my bike.

sorry for off topic, but which bike you have?

[matadormi5]

Originally Posted by tachi1247

The point is there is a fixed number of people out there who will buy a sports car. That market share gets divided among whatever brands are out there. In order to to make this car a success it will have to get a big enough piece of the pie and that requires putting up similar performance numbers to the competition.
.

First, the number of sports-car buyers is not fixed at all. People leave and enter the sports car market (more leave now b/c the movement for green and efficiency)

Who cares to fight over the 10% of ppl who want a sports-car today? It'd be much smarter to convince the entire car-shopping population that they want and CAN HAVE a sports car now.

Which is what the 86 is going to do. People who didn't want a sports car because they were inefficient powerhouses and big $$$ will now see that's not the case anymore and be added to the sports-car market. Toyota will capitalize on buyers that are newly won over by the 86 because......(see below)

Originally Posted by cyde01

right now this car has NO COMPETITION. it potentially has a market ALL TO IT'S SELF.

Yes! Toyota is going to open a whole new segment that will be essential for the sports car's survival in the midst of the globe's current climate. Sports cars don't have to cost big $$$ and they don't need to be packed with tons of power. A sports car can be efficient, it can be cheap, it can be decently practical (the 2+2) config.

If you believe 86 won't sell b/c it can't outgun the current selection of sports cars, then you must believe that the sports car will die off real soon.

[ichitaka05]

Originally Posted by matadormi5

First, the number of sports-car buyers is not fixed at all. People leave and enter the sports car market (more leave now b/c the movement for green and efficiency)

Who cares to fight over the 10% of ppl who want a sports-car today? It'd be much smarter to convince the entire car-shopping population that they want and CAN HAVE a sports car now.

Which is what the 86 is going to do. People who didn't want a sports car because they were inefficient powerhouses and big $$$ will now see that's not the case anymore and be added to the sports-car market. Toyota will capitalize on buyers that are newly won over by the 86 because......(see below)



Yes! Toyota is going to open a whole new segment that will be essential for the sports car's survival in the midst of the globe's current climate. Sports cars don't have to cost big $$$ and they don't need to be packed with tons of power. A sports car can be efficient, it can be cheap, it can be decently practical (the 2+2) config.

If you believe 86 won't sell b/c it can't outgun the current selection of sports cars, then you must believe that the sports car will die off real soon.

[tachi1247]

Originally Posted by ichitaka05

Vette & Exige? Yeah, they both have same price tag.

Have you ever compete in any race (SCCA solo & etc)? 2 extra cylinder and certain spec DO put them in different class. Have you see stock Miata, Stang & Z competing same class SCCA races?

The two cars may not compete in the same SCCA class, but we're not talking about racing classes. We're talking about the general population choosing a car to buy and drive on a daily basis.

You're right about the Exige/Elise, there aren't too many people cross shopping those two cars with a Vette, but I was using that more as an example to show that two cars can have similar performance numbers even though they achieve them in very different ways. People who are looking for a RWD sports car in the price range will cross shop the FT-86 with the genesis, mustang, & a 370z (if they can live without the rear seats).

[cyde01]

Originally Posted by tachi1247

Because that P/W is worse than a V6 accord sedan. While P/W isn't the end all be all of how quick it will be it does give a good indication of potential performance. A sports car, by definition, should outperform a family sedan in a race, even if said sports car isn't designed as a drag racer.

yeah well a camry v6 is also a family car, and it has a 5.9 sec 0-60. so does that somehow make 5.9 seconds a slow time, just because it's a family car? you're talking about the top of the line model, too. honestly i don't care if the top of the line version of a family car gets marginally better acceleration, especially when the ft will perform circles around the car in every other category. and if the random fact that a v6 accord happens to get a little better p/w than the ft prevents someone from buying an ft, then they have insecurity issues, and must be trying to make up for something else. who cares if the v6 accord gets a little better p/w, grow a bigger *#& people.

[WhiskeyJack]

Originally Posted by tachi1247

Well for $25k (real purchase price not sticker) I could buy the 3.8L V6 model with 300 hp so it's carrying around 11.3 lb/hp compared to 13.5 lb/hp for a 200 hp 2700 lb FT-86. So the Hyundai has the better power to weight ratio.



It must be your friends' cars that I am always seeing for sale on craiglist with blown motors. You can't just crank up the boost on a stock car and expect to get an 150% more output. Even if the car did come with a turbo you wouldn't be able to turn up the boost high enough to get to 500 hp. I don't see $6k paying for the new air intake, intake & exhaust manifolds, intercooler, exhaust, transmission, drivetrain, brake, and fuels system upgrades you're going to need to make/handle that kind of power. And all that assumes that the engine internals can take that kind of stress. The SRT-4 may be able to do that, but there certainly aren't too many other engines out there that can. The supra was the last car I can remember which had a stock engine with that much potential. The 1st & 2nd gen eclipses could go to ~350-400 but even that was risky without some internal upgrades.

You're right that most stock cars can't handle much power, but my point wasnt that it's so easy anyone can do it. As I said before, there are vehicles with a large aftermarket following that 10K can get you most of the way to 500 HP. That's not to say there aren't other upgrades that you'll definitely want to do to put the power down properly.

A good example of a stock motor that can take a beating is the K20. There's a video of a civic kicking around making 510 Hp on stock internals.

It's true the SRT-4 is a bit of a special case. AGP sells a kit that includes a massive turbo and all of the associated bolt-ons including fuel for $2800. Throw in some piping, a Tuner, new clutch and some other miscelaneous parts and you're at 500+ HP for around 6g's. Building the motor on that thing is also suprisingly cheap as well.


You're not going to be able to do this with a Miata, or pretty much any non-turbo Japanese car... But if the foundation is right, the FT86 should be able to make tons of power for much less then 25 Grand. Hell, im pretty sure GM's Ecotec motors can handle 800 HP or something rediculous like that, and if GM can do it, sure as sh*t toyota can.

[cyde01]

Originally Posted by tachi1247

You're right about the Exige/Elise, there aren't too many people cross shopping those two cars with a Vette, but I was using that more as an example to show that two cars can have similar performance numbers even though they achieve them in very different ways. People who are looking for a RWD sports car in the price range will cross shop the FT-86 with the genesis, mustang, & a 370z (if they can live without the rear seats).

if people aren't cross shopping the vette and the elise, i think that's a good enough indication that people won't cross shop the v6 pony cars and the ft either. vette= huge, american, torquey, daily driver friendly. elise= lightweight, colin chapman philosophy with great handling, barebones, not daily driver friendly. pony cars= huge, american, torquey, lots of rear space and cargo. ft= lightweight, extremely compact, more track focused, less rear space and cargo, probably better mileage, import which appeals to a totally different crowd, etc.

i can see the genesis coupe competing with the ft, but i don't see the stang due to size and differing target audience or the 370z due to price competing with the ft. even if the ft DOES compete with the stang, i'm convinced that it will have enough merits to be able to carve it's own marketshare, even with less p/w. i know that once december comes around and the car starts selling in the US i will be proven correct.

[tachi1247]

Originally Posted by matadormi5

If you believe 86 won't sell b/c it can't outgun the current selection of sports cars, then you must believe that the sports car will die off real soon.

Sports cars have been dieing off at a very rapid pace over the last 3 decades.

Up until this mini resurgence of the Z and RX-8 (which are currently being discussed as not being renewed at the end of their run) there were no Japanese sports cars other than the Miata. Since the pony car era almost all of the mainstream sports cars have disappeared with the exception of the corvette, mustang, & the miata. The camaro and challenger are back, but they aren't selling well so who knows how long they will last.

The thunderbird, probe, charger, 'cuda, cougar, monte carlo, 442, supra, RX-7, 3000 gt, celica, mr-2, 240 sx, prelude, integra, and several more that I can't think of are all gone. The sports car is dieing which is why it is important for Toyota to get this one right so that there are cars that appeal to enthusiasts like us.

[Mr.Jay]

Originally Posted by tachi1247

Because that P/W is worse than a V6 accord sedan. While P/W isn't the end all be all of how quick it will be it does give a good indication of potential performance. A sports car, by definition, should outperform a family sedan in a race, even if said sports car isn't designed as a drag racer.

I love how you use whatever you can to make your point when its only that one little detail

yes the P/W might be worst than a Accord V6 but I don't know the last time someone wanting to buy a sport car ever compared a family sedan with little handling ability to one to a car thats mean for drivers. I will say right now the accord no matter what will have a hard time handling like a Cayman and will easily lose on the track to the FT86. So yea you get better P/W at the cost of handling, looks, RWD and $28K starting price.

Also for your shitting on the Mustang makes me think you completely judge base upon the past or what you've heard considering the new mustang is a great car and the 5.0 is faster than a M3. Like you said yourself you can't compare to cars from the past.

[Mr.Jay]

Originally Posted by tachi1247

Sports cars have been dieing off at a very rapid pace over the last 3 decades.

Up until this mini resurgence of the Z and RX-8 (which are currently being discussed as not being renewed at the end of their run) there were no Japanese sports cars other than the Miata. Since the pony car era almost all of the mainstream sports cars have disappeared with the exception of the corvette, mustang, & the miata. The camaro and challenger are back, but they aren't selling well so who knows how long they will last.

The thunderbird, probe, charger, 'cuda, cougar, monte carlo, 442, supra, RX-7, 3000 gt, celica, mr-2, 240 sx, prelude, integra, and several more that I can't think of are all gone. The sports car is dieing which is why it is important for Toyota to get this one right so that there are cars that appeal to enthusiasts like us.

if you want to use that agurment than cars themselves have been dying as most automakers are moving towards hybirds

EDIT: crap meant to edit my other post

[ichitaka05]

Originally Posted by tachi1247

Sports cars have been dieing off at a very rapid pace over the last 3 decades.

Up until this mini resurgence of the Z and RX-8 (which are currently being discussed as not being renewed at the end of their run) there were no Japanese sports cars other than the Miata. Since the pony car era almost all of the mainstream sports cars have disappeared with the exception of the corvette, mustang, & the miata. The camaro and challenger are back, but they aren't selling well so who knows how long they will last.

The thunderbird, probe, charger, 'cuda, cougar, monte carlo, 442, supra, RX-7, 3000 gt, celica, mr-2, 240 sx, prelude, integra, and several more that I can't think of are all gone. The sports car is dieing which is why it is important for Toyota to get this one right so that there are cars that appeal to enthusiasts like us.

Correction, in US. Japan was still selling sports car that so called "died".
Supra ~ 2002
Silvia ~ 2002
300zx ~ 2000
S2000 ~ 2009
NSX ~ 2005

now, 350z & Rx8 came out 2003.

[xantonin]

Originally Posted by ichitaka05

sorry for off topic, but which bike you have?

It's in my signature. I calculated 354.9 / 131.2 HP.

Originally Posted by cyde01

yeah well a camry v6 is also a family car, and it has a 5.9 sec 0-60. so does that somehow make 5.9 seconds a slow time, just because it's a family car? you're talking about the top of the line model, too. honestly i don't care if the top of the line version of a family car gets marginally better acceleration, especially when the ft will perform circles around the car in every other category. and if the random fact that a v6 accord happens to get a little better p/w than the ft prevents someone from buying an ft, then they have insecurity issues, and must be trying to make up for something else. who cares if the v6 accord gets a little better p/w, grow a bigger *#& people.

I agree. You can't expect a car for around, or less than, $25,000 to beat every single other car in every category. Especially when that's not it's focus.