Stock suspension how good is it?

[Gforce]

Originally Posted by venturaII

I can't say I've ever read any such comparison - got a link?


Edit: unless you're talking about a 2017 BRZ PP versus base FRS...

I'm still looking. I read it quite some time ago on this board actually, before the 2014 model came out which used the same springs for the FRS as were already fitted to the BRZ.

The world market GT86 version of the FRS was different again and as far advanced I knew stayed different until the 2017 model year. The GT86 was slightly more tail happy than the BRZ in all markets.

Here's one interesting set of numbers:

http://fastestlaps.com/comparisons/hnjz6541utf8

Here's another comparing the FRS to the BRZ in the hands of the same driver on the same day at the same track.

http://fastestlaps.com/comparisons/hnjz6541utf8

[Racecomp Engineering]

I think original BRZ suspension was slightly better than the FRS (just IMO) and in theory would be slightly faster around a track. But it's close enough that it might come down to whether or not you had lunch between runs...

Both are improved now and it's a pretty darn good suspension for a car under $30k. Plenty of room for improvement of course, and even just an alignment makes a huge difference. Yes definitely a little overdamped, especially the earlier models.

The OEM tire choice shows this car was not necessarily designed for ultimate lap times off the showroom floor. Which is fine.

- Andrew

[mav1178]

Originally Posted by Gforce

From an engineering perspective that is a deficiency.

So from an accounting perspective, how much would fixing this cost?

Or maybe it was designed on purpose from the factory so they can keep "improving" the car and we are all suckers for buying subsequent "better" models?

I think the answer isn't as simple as you make it out to be. Car makers don't plan on vehicles to sell in a year or two, they decide entire product cycles years in advance because it takes a lot of time and resources to put together the final product.

-alex

[venturaII]

And I debate the 'better' label; the BRZ had more understeer dialed in, which would make it more stable for the inexperienced at high speeds. But that doesn't make the FRS worse - it's a matter of preference. I like the livelier feel. And you can still make the FRS understeer if you do something dumb, it's just slightly less prone to it.

[Racecomp Engineering]

Originally Posted by venturaII

And I debate the 'better' label; the BRZ had more understeer dialed in, which would make it more stable for the inexperienced at high speeds. But that doesn't make the FRS worse - it's a matter of preference. I like the livelier feel. And you can still make the FRS understeer if you do something dumb, it's just slightly less prone to it.

I agree with this. The margins are thin enough that it really is just driver preference.

- Andrew

[Captain Snooze]

Originally Posted by Gforce

The tendency to oversteer slows the car down. It was designed in to make a low powered car more exciting to drive. This was not done to save money, obviously, since Subaru has then consistently spent money each model year modifying this tendency out of the chassis.

From an engineering perspective that is a deficiency.

From a performance perspective it is a deficiency not an engineering perspective. That is, the car was engineered to have that characteristic. It depends on what the marketing department wanted.

[nikitopo]

There was no deficiency in any of the cars. The car designer said once that the suspension difference between a GT86/FRS and a BRZ was like the difference between a Trueno and a Levin. In a sense the one was a bit better at the corner entry and the other at the corner exit. It is all about suspension tuning approaches and driving style. Afterwards they changed it in the GT86/FRS, because the BRZ setting was safer for the average driver.

[Gforce]

As Subaru has just demonstrated, fixing the deficiency on handling cost them nothing. The 2017 sells for the same price as previous model years.

I hold the view that Subaru and Toyota designed in the original deficiency to make the cars more appealing to young enthusiastic drivers raised on fwd hatches.

Now that market may be approaching saturation Subaru has decided to make the chassis a bit more grown up.

The point of this thread was to encourage discussion about what the star in a reasonably priced car can tell us about the way the current car handles. Now top gear has grown up a bit and puts these stars in a car that is fun to drive and a bit of a challenge the segment is more entertaining.

Jay Kay managed a full 720 spin which was impressive. No fwd economy car would do that no matter how hard you pushed it.

[Gforce]

Originally Posted by Racecomp Engineering

I think original BRZ suspension was slightly better than the FRS (just IMO) and in theory would be slightly faster around a track. But it's close enough that it might come down to whether or not you had lunch between runs...

Both are improved now and it's a pretty darn good suspension for a car under $30k. Plenty of room for improvement of course, and even just an alignment makes a huge difference. Yes definitely a little overdamped, especially the earlier models.

The OEM tire choice shows this car was not necessarily designed for ultimate lap times off the showroom floor. Which is fine.

- Andrew

On reflection the last modification I would have made to my 2013 doing this again would be to upgrade the factory tires. The first thing I would now do is fit those rear subframe bushes and a transmission mount insert. Then I would fit Bilstein B6 dampers. Next would be a larger front bar. Last would be the MCA traction brackets.

The stock tire is high quality and light. The lack of grip does not affect the balance of the chassis.

The 2017 rear springs transform the older chassis, provided you still have the stock springs on the car to improve upon.

The Edelbrock Supercharger is impressive and before fitting that I would have upgraded the tires. The Supercharger just spins up the winter tires and would do the same on stock Primacys. One standing start on winter tires got the engine to red line with the tires still spinning, upshift to second got me a bit more wheelspin before I backed out....

[Yoshoobaroo]

Originally Posted by Gforce

The Supercharger just spins up the winter tires and would do the same on stock Primacys. One standing start on winter tires got the engine to red line with the tires still spinning, upshift to second got me a bit more wheelspin before I backed out....

You don't need a supercharger to do that. I am running hankook V12 EVO 2s (much stickier than stock) and an UEL header, that's it. I can still roast the rears all the way through first and into second, even on the hot florida tarmac.

If I were to do it again, I would replace the tires first. I used to think getting anything stickier than the primacies would ruin the handling, but I was wrong. This chassis is truly capable. It's a masterpiece.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Tokay444]

The first link shows the 86 is quicker around all but one the test tracks.

Originally Posted by Gforce

I'm still looking. I read it quite some time ago on this board actually, before the 2014 model came out which used the same springs for the FRS as were already fitted to the BRZ.

The world market GT86 version of the FRS was different again and as far advanced I knew stayed different until the 2017 model year. The GT86 was slightly more tail happy than the BRZ in all markets.

Here's one interesting set of numbers:

http://fastestlaps.com/comparisons/hnjz6541utf8

Here's another comparing the FRS to the BRZ in the hands of the same driver on the same day at the same track.

http://fastestlaps.com/comparisons/hnjz6541utf8

And the second link is identical to the first.

[Captain Snooze]

Originally Posted by Gforce

I hold the view [1] that Subaru and Toyota designed in the original deficiency [2] to make the cars more appealing [3] to young enthusiastic drivers raised on fwd hatches.

[semantics]
1/ You have an opinion.
2/ You call this opinion a deficiency.
3/ You acknowledge this "deficiency" was deliberate.

Not sure about this thread.

[/semantics]

[nikitopo]

Exactly. Everyone was praising the handling and balance of this car and now we hear that the initial suspension setting was a deficiency.

[Gforce]

Originally Posted by Tokay444

The first link shows the 86 is quicker around all but one the test tracks.


And the second link is identical to the first.

Whoops.

http://www.pure86.com/video-brz-vs-m...y-motor-trend/